This repository has been archived by the owner on Nov 14, 2022. It is now read-only.
-
Notifications
You must be signed in to change notification settings - Fork 0
/
Copy path2021-06-03-chat.txt
219 lines (219 loc) · 17.8 KB
/
2021-06-03-chat.txt
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
00:27:02 Frode Hegland: yes
00:27:05 Norman Chella: 👍
00:27:52 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: I hope these tools don't over-optimize for task/project management and team documentation.
00:29:26 Jess Martin: @Brian: precisely why I find it "regrettable". My dream is that we see a cornucopia of tools, toys, explorations, and such springing up and cross-pollenating over the next few years. Premature widespread commercial adoption seems problematic to me.
00:30:09 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: @Jess Problematic but I'd also love some more commercial adoption! :) Tough to avoid $$$
00:30:52 Jess Martin: hahaha true good point! figuring out how to fund the explorations w/o widespread commercial adoption: another pressing problem ;)
00:30:53 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Maybe it's in part necessary for other products to go first - a first wave to soak up those use-cases
00:31:37 Jess Martin: Notion, Coda, Airtable seem to be serving as that "early absorption" pretty well (though I think we have leagues to go beyond those tools)
00:31:47 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Exactly
00:32:43 Marc-Antoine Parent: IPFS, Gun, Hypercore and Holochain are kinda competing in that (broad) domain
00:33:18 Jess Martin: @map thanks for those references! what do you call that "domain", broadly?
00:33:26 Marc-Antoine Parent: distributed web
00:35:14 Norman Chella: If there was a TFT x Email function with OCR, that behavior would be so cool
00:35:58 Jess Martin: @norman I think this one is pretty awesome: https://screenotate.com/
00:36:48 A B: Hi everyone! Are there graph database implementations with IPFS?
00:36:58 Boris Mann: IPFS has a graph structure underneath
00:37:31 Norman Chella: @Jess oh wow thanks for this! I've always done OCR through Google Keep, and tons of screenshots and manually transcribing them, this actually looks pretty good
00:37:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: Yes... Look up IPLD for the graph structure over (not under) IPFS. But I still would not call it a graph database (not indexed)
00:38:07 Jess Martin: @norman - also check out the other work the author (Omar Rizwan) has done. He's _very_ interesting!
00:38:38 Norman Chella: I follow Omar! Didn't realize it was his creation 😄
00:41:28 Jess Martin: "relation" sounds like systems thinking. The system is not merely the sum of its parts but the relation between the nodes.
00:42:15 Norman Chella: colour idea = rather the articulation of the message, but the most atomic form of the meaning behind the message?
00:42:55 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: How does this definition of relation differ from emergent phenomenon or viewing things at different levels of scale? (people as people vs bags of organs vs clumps of atoms)
00:44:13 Norman Chella: ^Maybe it's what can be observed vs. cannot: where something must be conceptualized in our heads from the sum of all the observations within a moment (eg. upon looking at a painting), rather than what can possibly be observed (eg. atoms can be measured/viewed)
00:45:10 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: Does that limit the concept to the relative power of one's evolved tools for perception?
00:46:17 Norman Chella: Don't think so, that may be when imagination comes into play: integration of previous observations, thoughts etc. I think with the sum of my entire life to conceptualize this entity rather than leave it at surface-level observation. Tools for perception become an extension of my processing ability
00:46:36 Norman Chella: Just as a poet does in terms of words - articulating expressions through relation, we become provoked by their ability to relate anything to everything
00:47:21 Frode Hegland: Wonderful to be here to listen to this and see the comments. Feels like home :-)
00:47:34 Jack Park: :)
00:47:38 Jess Martin: @frode: agreed. goosebumps.
00:47:46 Frode Hegland: :-)
00:47:54 Marc-Antoine Parent: I think it's beyond perception, though the notion of Gestalt is rooted in perception. It's any systemic pattern, whether perceived or not
00:48:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: Multiple interpretations of any symbol, absolutely
00:49:11 Blaine Cook: Frode, yes, agreed - I love listening to Iian, and I’m sitting here just saying “yes” in varying intonations at my screen. 😄
00:49:28 Norman Chella: Wow. Tyranny, that's strong framing
00:49:47 Marc-Antoine Parent: I support that framing.
00:49:50 Blaine Cook: Norman: Yes, and I couldn’t agree more.
00:49:57 Norman Chella: Yeah, it's beautiful
00:50:20 Peter Wasilko: Open Hypermedia is the way to go.
00:50:27 Norman Chella: Introduces that hierarchical element to markup - as soon as I see yours I must humble myself to your understanding to interpret your markup
00:51:21 Wendy Elford: Markup is imposes meaning?
00:52:32 A B: Good question
00:52:42 A B: How?
00:52:44 Blaine Cook: Wendy: Yes! I love that framing. Expressing knowledge in [inline] Markup is like trying to express poetry or art with the simple grammar of a programming language.
00:53:13 Marc-Antoine Parent: The question is: can you layer other interpretations (meanings) on markup text? Not easily.
00:53:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: The point is for anybody being able to propose an interpretive layer.
00:53:47 Wendy Elford: the analogue of this is ‘clean language’ a la David Grove
00:53:52 Peter Wasilko: To my mind knowledge = parsable text
00:54:16 Marc-Antoine Parent: text almost always has >1 parsing
00:54:49 Jess Martin: "desktop state as a UNIT OF WORK" is such a great example of the relation principle in action. the different "windows" opened up, etc, is work in itself.
00:54:50 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: isn't knowledge embedded in text, with no single embedding?
00:54:53 Boris Mann: I like that, I need to collaborate with future self / past self
00:55:26 Peter Wasilko: That is why I tend to use Parsing Expression Grammars in all my code, so I’ll only get one canonical parse.
00:55:27 Jack Park: A lot of text is deliberately ambiguous. Seems you need to be able to make multiple parses.
00:55:33 Wendy Elford: At the level of metaphor there are some adjacencies but always(?) devolves to n=1 for deeper meaning
00:56:05 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Peter one parse is a choice among possible parses. But I meant your grammatical/semantic parsing in wetware
00:56:14 Blaine Cook: yes yes yes yes re: multi-user
00:56:31 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Brian absolutely, the "no single embedding" is key
00:56:54 Boris Mann: I just found a windowing / layering plugin for TiddlyWiki https://thesherwood.github.io/Mentat/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Fadmls%2Fengine:%5B%5B%24%3A%2FWindow%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5B%24%3A%2FWindow%203%5D%5D%20%24%3A%2FSidebar%20%24%3A%2FTopbar%20%24%3A%2FWindowbar
00:57:20 Peter Wasilko: @Marc, ah, I see what you mean now.
00:57:30 Jess Martin: @boris woah, that's wild.
00:57:40 Blaine Cook: If I was a linguist, I’d say something about “parsing language” being the rules for understanding, and the experience of conversation being what we should be attempting to enable.
00:57:50 Wendy Elford: Meaning is context sensitive - time and environment, not just actor.
00:58:11 Norman Chella: @Wendy +1
00:58:32 Boris Mann: @blaine there is even something there about formal conversation vs informal
00:58:40 Boris Mann: I always think of the different forms of address in German
00:58:58 Jess Martin: @blaine: the augmented conversation :) that "experience of conversation" is often about sharing knowledge between two sets of wetware (to Wendy's point, sharing your context).
00:59:08 Peter Wasilko: If I want to get multiple interpretations I’d use a Combinatory Categorial Grammar
01:00:51 Peter Wasilko: Mark Steedman’s work is really fascinating there. https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/nlg/readings/ccgintro.pdf
01:00:58 Wendy Elford: Finely grained data; allows deeper levels of integration. Resolution is never achieved
01:02:36 Wendy Elford: equivalent is ignorance based learning - properties - knowing fallibly
01:02:37 Marc-Antoine Parent: Wendy that makes sense to me. Resolution is an asymptotic goal.
01:03:12 Gyuri Lajos: Graph Database over IPFS, @TrailMarks is building one called MindGraph
01:05:50 Wendy Elford: Fav framework here for me is taxonomy of ignorance Michael Smithson
01:06:33 Peter Wasilko: Authority Control can be a real nightmare.
01:08:09 Gordon: Hildegard von Bingen! https://youtu.be/Ei88J4lERbk
01:08:31 Marc-Antoine Parent: Beautiful work!
01:08:33 Jess Martin: 👏
01:08:34 Norman Chella: Practical illustration = music to my ears
01:08:40 Gordon: 👏
01:08:41 Frode Hegland: And beautiful presentation!
01:08:49 Norman Chella: 👏
01:09:01 Blaine Cook: 👏
01:09:19 Marc-Antoine Parent: 👏👏👏
01:09:23 Norman Chella: Best answer
01:10:02 Jess Martin: feels like we are stepping into the matrix... :)
01:10:44 Norman Chella: WHAT
01:10:54 Norman Chella: The YT video becomes the 'wallpaper'??
01:11:13 A B: Hi Lian! The relations between nodes are "standoff" too? They exist as nodes too? How that's possible?
01:12:55 Norman Chella: The auto-wrap is so beautiful
01:13:29 A B: Fantastic
01:13:38 Jess Martin: woah overlapping links
01:13:47 A B: Standoff power
01:13:55 Boris Mann: Yeah, that’s the standoff / external markup — infinite overlaps
01:14:20 Norman Chella: Oh wow
01:14:21 Jess Martin: definitely seems like it would get crazy powerful for transclusions - would love to see examples
01:14:35 Norman Chella: shortcut to switch between page/aliasing function on the same open bracket?
01:16:20 Blaine Cook: So the trick then is to have dual link / offsets. I haven’t figured the right way to encode this, but having text offsets and timecode offsets into the video would create an automatic captioning tool (or whatever we can imagine)
01:16:59 Marc-Antoine Parent: an early version of Pundit had time _and_ spatial regions
01:17:10 Norman Chella: Maybe an outliner format/'text file' with every video/audio file for timestamps and threading function?
01:19:17 Marc-Antoine Parent: Intent to open-source it?
01:19:23 Michael Gartner: https://www.patreon.com/codexeditor
01:20:11 Gyuri Lajos: Its turtles all the way up
01:20:39 Wendy Elford: Standoffs - like triples? Meta data about metadata.
01:21:09 john knowles: Anyone have experience using Interval Trees to express standoff ranges?
01:21:18 Michael Gartner: 😊
01:22:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: @John played a bit, not extensively
01:22:43 Boris Mann: https://github.com/argimenes/standoff-properties-editor
01:23:13 Blaine Cook: @john knowles: there’s a *ton* of optimization work to be done in this space. All of the implementations I know of are pretty naive, but ropes/interval trees or some combination probably feature in the implementation long-term
01:23:24 Marc-Antoine Parent: there's indeed a long conversation to have there :-)
01:23:32 Frode Hegland: This will be my answer to the open source question later :-)
01:23:51 Norman Chella: Setting the stage hahaha
01:24:21 Marc-Antoine Parent: I think actually, open format is even more important here. Interoperability is key.
01:24:23 Frode Hegland: Yes, exactly Iian :-)
01:24:31 Norman Chella: hahahahhahahaha
01:24:32 Michael Gartner: BDFL!
01:24:33 Frode Hegland: Yes, MA
01:24:51 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏
01:24:51 Marc-Antoine Parent: Amazing work, thank you!
01:24:51 Jeff Griffiths: Super cool!
01:24:53 Norman Chella: 👏
01:26:39 Iian Neill: Definitely want the format to be as open as possible
01:27:03 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thank you. Would love to discuss that in depth.
01:27:37 Iian Neill: Please DM me at any time on Twitter to discuss further
01:27:51 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thank you.
01:33:58 Norman Chella: Very intentional concept mapping, interesting
01:38:02 Jess Martin: I see what Frode was talking about in terms of his work being "document-centric" rather than "process-centric". Seems to be starting from the perspective of a _document to be read_ rather than _notes to be written_.
01:39:37 Jess Martin: document vs process focus is a really interesting mind-shift. whereas Iian is focused on process, but more like an OS replacement.
01:39:58 Brian James Rubinton - Kanopi.io: For the kids!
01:40:11 Jack Park: Doug Engelbart’s Mother of All Demos was about document processing.
01:40:13 Iian Neill: Love it, Frode!
01:40:17 Michael Gartner: 👏
01:40:19 Jess Martin: 🤯
01:41:23 Norman Chella: Happy birthday!
01:41:27 Iian Neill: Happy birthday!
01:42:29 Jess Martin: "at some point you have to publish" :)
01:44:10 Frode Hegland: The community: https://future-of-text.circle.so/c/welcome
01:46:59 Michael Gartner: 👏
01:47:02 Marc-Antoine Parent: Great progress!
01:47:04 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏👏
01:47:05 Iian Neill: *applause*
01:47:16 Peter Wasilko: Bravo Frode!
01:47:23 john knowles: Thanks Frode!
01:47:35 Michael Gartner: I love that his picture looked exactly like he was still there!
01:47:37 Norman Chella: 👏
01:47:39 Frode Hegland: :-) than you all
01:47:56 Iian Neill: Great work, Frode! Would love to catch up sometime.
01:47:58 Jess Martin: it's laaate on the east coast. note-taking rate has slowed significantly 🤣
01:48:40 Marc-Antoine Parent: You're telling me... I started my zoom day 14h ago, almost non-stop (one 15 minutes break)
01:51:03 Frode Hegland: Real digital paper… yes…
01:51:10 Jess Martin: @map: wow! 😬 I can't maintain that level of focus...
01:51:54 Marc-Antoine Parent: Not sure I can either!
01:51:56 Jess Martin: hmmmm "model-aided notetaking". that's perking me up :)
01:53:10 Iian Neill: Indeed. :-)
01:53:18 Marc-Antoine Parent: no
01:53:50 Norman Chella: Oh wow, it's like building your own subway system of your thinking
01:54:09 Marc-Antoine Parent: vaguely reminded of Frontier
01:54:21 Boris Mann: So many 2 decades old memories
01:54:33 Marc-Antoine Parent: do want to see more!
01:54:34 Michael Gartner: +1 for live!
01:55:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: Yay for live link labels!
01:56:49 Jack Park: Kanopi youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht30-Qi3C6A
01:56:55 Jess Martin: would love to see an example of spatial organization... most tools focus on text and/or structured representations like graphs / trees. would love to be able to spatially organize my notes and maintain that. "window organization as unit of work"
01:58:20 Jess Martin: ah, "model" as in machine learning model?
01:59:11 Marc-Antoine Parent: Bravo!
01:59:15 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏👏👏
01:59:17 Jack Park: https://github.com/brianru
01:59:17 Iian Neill: Awesome!
01:59:20 Frode Hegland: Great!
01:59:25 Iian Neill: Seeing lots of overlap...
01:59:45 Jack Park: Tinderbox, as I recall, allows you to make a node a type.
02:00:52 Marc-Antoine Parent: yes, Tinderbox could be said to be using a prototype-based OO model.
02:01:35 Peter Wasilko: http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/
02:01:43 Marc-Antoine Parent: The thing with flexible data models is that others have to adapt to it...
02:02:11 Peter Wasilko: Tinderbox is one of the few proprietary tools I can’t live without.
02:02:19 Iian Neill: Hmmm
02:03:04 Blaine Cook: You could put those ingredient links right on the recipe method text ;-)
02:03:07 A B: That's nice
02:03:20 Marc-Antoine Parent: There's a lot to love about Tinderbox. I have not yet found something that fits my brain perfectly, but Tinderbox came close
02:03:33 Norman Chella: Overlay Kanopi window within codex OS?
02:03:36 Iian Neill: Lots of overlap with the graph meta-model between Codex and Canopi
02:04:02 Michael Gartner: 👍
02:04:03 Norman Chella: Then you have a window for Kanopi interface, but the entities translate between both like the FG/BG in the Codex presentation?
02:04:08 Marc-Antoine Parent: Interchange first!
02:04:09 Iian Neill: @Norman: would be keen to do that
02:04:16 Frode Hegland: yes
02:04:20 Frode Hegland: Interchange
02:04:28 Frode Hegland: Visual-meta…. ;-)
02:04:45 Norman Chella: A new interchange language :D
02:04:46 Jess Martin: "interchange-first software" :-P like Ink and Switch's Local-First Software mantra.
02:04:46 Iian Neill: Interchange gives the most freedom to individual developers to explore the problems deeply
02:04:50 Marc-Antoine Parent: But the point about most flexible data wins applies ;-)
02:05:04 Peter Wasilko: Tinderbox files are stored as XML, I’d love to see an atJSON converter for them.
02:05:13 Jess Martin: Muse
02:05:14 Boris Mann: My kingdom for threaded chat AND react emotions so I can applause Jess
02:05:29 Marc-Antoine Parent: Actually internal tinderbox xml uses standoff annotation!
02:05:37 Jess Martin: totally - and I love the idea of multiple maps!
02:05:42 Iian Neill: @Marc: interesting...
02:06:11 Peter Wasilko: Maybe Mark Bernstein could be invited to present here.
02:06:12 Gyuri Lajos: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/understory-digital-garden-club-tickets-151313531847?utm_source=eventbrite&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=reminder_attendees_48hour_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemaileventremind
02:06:18 Jess Martin: @boris: feeling that need for react emotions too 😕
02:06:22 Marc-Antoine Parent: Great idea inviting Mark
02:06:57 Iian Neill: *claps*
02:06:59 Michael Gartner: 👏👏
02:06:59 Norman Chella: 👏👏
02:07:01 Blaine Cook: 👏👏👏
02:07:02 Jess Martin: 👏👏
02:07:03 Peter Wasilko: Bravo Brian
02:07:07 Marc-Antoine Parent: Thanks a lot! and Bravo again to all!
02:07:21 Norman Chella: Thank you everybody! Really exciting stuff
02:07:21 Wendy Elford: thanks - new to the tribe
02:07:24 Frode Hegland: Lovely evening. I mean night :-)
02:07:48 Gyuri Lajos: Thank you all, great event again
02:07:48 Frode Hegland: Feel free to join us working on the future of text https://future-of-text.circle.so/c/welcome
02:08:20 Jack Park: https://topia.io/event/understory-digital-gardening-club/2022-03-04/
02:08:43 Frode Hegland: No!!!!!!!!!! Next meeting please? Maybe monthly?…
02:09:08 Peter Wasilko: +1 Frode’s sentiment!
02:09:21 Marc-Antoine Parent: indeed!
02:09:58 Frode Hegland: Juts thank you