game design problem: ingredients gathering and potion brewing

[WinterLicht]

I ran into a game design problem with ingredients gathering and potion brewing. Rough sketch of the current and implemented idea is attached here.

I want to make the player gather items on level progress but don't have a good idea how the player should use this items further. Potion brewing is fitting Pepper&Carrot setting very well. But the current mechanics/idea feels boring. There is no effect on actual endless runner game, only a visual change for a character who is only seen in kitchen screen. Also the game lacks currently a background story.

Maybe potions that affect player's skills is a better idea. But on the test sessions I've noticed, that the most players are not using skills at all.

Every idea is welcome! The game is in early development state and this is currently a WIP. So feel free to discuss.

[craigmaloney]

One thought is to change the focus of the game so completing levels equal another piece of the potion. But rather than have them affect the game (more powers, etc) they're just bits of the potion that Pepper needs for the potion contest. So they have no in-game effect, but when you have enough of them you can get a little reward.

[Deevad]

Hey, (Happy New Year @WinterLicht !) I'm happy if I can give ideas. But take this in consideration about my advices and opinions : I'm a 35 years/old video-game player who stopped playing after a childhood intensive period made with old 386/486 PC games , SuperNES and a bit of Playstation1, games on PC and Nintendo64. My experience with video-game stopped with Playstation2 and I never played a game on a Smartphone or tablet. So, I might not be the ideal feedback here; you might have more information about what is right to do if you were entertained yourself in playing this type of game on this type of interface. So, trust your feelings first about it. But I'll try to help ;-)

Here I like the idea to collect items at the end of level as a reward ( just to show level completion ) as @craigmaloney said. I also like the ease to identify the completion/the purpose of the game ( eg. Completing a list of ingredients ; all ingredients are visible but greyed/unavailable at the start, and completing levels 'unlock' them ).

For the story, yes, maybe it can be simpler. The cellar/cave of Pepper is oviously in a mess: ennemies, platform, flood of green potion ; but the only way to make the situation back to normal is to collect precious ingredients to brew a potion; but ingredients were also stored in the cellar/cave of the house (that's why she needs to complete levels). First idea to refactor this:
At start of the story, Pepper waste a potion ( again ) in a cauldron. The result become green, and expand. She quickly close the cauldron. Put chain and padlock around it, and store it in the cave/cellar. We discover, a lot of cauldron in similar situation are already there with similar treatment. ( ha, Pepper... your solutions are predictible :-D ) Pepper go back upstair ; and then a quick focus on the newer cauldron getting under pressure a lot. A big 'BOOOM' happens. Pepper discover her cave/cellar in a mess: all cauldron exploded : ennemies, dimension warp, platforms, flood.... All changed. Cayenne, Thyme, Cumin are horrified. They told Pepper and Carrot to clean all of this. And give them a bucket and a broom to wash the floor. As soon as Cayenne, Thyme, Cumin live house, Pepper reject the broom and bucket and decide to brew "A potion of cleaning". The problems: ingredients are hidden in the cave ; and she must do it quickly (run) to solve it before Cayenne, Thyme, Cumin are back.... ( ok, maybe it's a too long intro , I'm sure there is a way to cut it down ; and remember, it's just an idea ; I'm not emotionaly attached to this one ; feel free to crit, reject, take a part of it, or invent something else, no problem ... )

About the super skills now, broom + Carrot attack + black hole + time stop are good, I like them. But it's hard to manage them while 'running' ( for my noob skill ) , especially to focus on their availability at the time I want to trigger them, because as far as I understood, there is a sort of farming system to have them available. Maybe my old school videogame brain is used to get -as for old shoothemups- a limited number of bomb, supernova, missiles, I can trigger at any time. In my opinion, adding skills progressively through the levels could help. First level(s) Jump only alone. ( Carrot don't want to help ) Second levels, Carrot believe Pepper can make it, and decide to go with her ; Jump only + Carrot running aside ( this is a little reward already ) to find her witch broom. Third level, she get the broom ; so Broom stick attack skill is now available + a first ingredient at the end ; and Carrot tells he will help also to attack. Fourth level ; Jump+ unlimited Broomstick attack + 2xCarrot attack available , leading to another ingredient+skill. etc...etc...

Another thought for ingredients: 'Carrot', 'Apples', 'Broccoli' are not rare enough item imo in this context/story proposal : Pepper is lazy by nature, and if she had to risk herself to run on this levels for vegetable, it wouldn't work. It would be better to catch ingredients she couldn't have at the market or on her vegetable garden. So, for the design/concept of ingredients, there is room for more fun. Egg of pink bat, Dracolich's moustache, salt from the rainbow sea, etc...

[craigmaloney]

I like this idea. Could also have the skills be introduced for different, more "dangerous" parts of the cellar (Pepper knows that certain parts are safer than others, but some require more than a flashlight and sturdy shoes). And the ingredients should be rare and semi-humorous. After all, who but a witch would keep toenail clippings from The Sage?

[WinterLicht]

Oh, wow. Already so many good input! =)
Happy New Year @Deevad !

One potion, either for contest or for cleaning, is a good idea for the story and visualizing the game progress. But I was thinking here about something with in-game effects, because it motivates more. It is possible to have both, potion for story progress and something for in-game effects.

What about automatic skill activation on collision with a potion in-game? This is maybe the simplest way for the player. But boring?

Limited skills is not a bad idea too. I 'm thinking here about ability to brew "skill potions" which you can take with you. You can set up the UI-wheel with up to 3-5 potions and also can use corresponding skills as often as potions taken. Downside is that player may be annoyed of preparation every time before level start. What do you think?

The other thing is, that we will need a recipe book. Kitchen will be reworked for sure. (Example with a "skill potion" illustrated below) It will be more easy to understand brewing-mechanics with book, or? In current version no one understood how to brew a potion...

Getting skills on level progress: do you mean you unlock them forever or that the skill is bound to a level? I think unlocking forever is better.

I really like the background story idea of @Deevad. It is not too complicated and can be used as a tutorial. Something like this:

1. Pepper brews the potion (explaining brewing mechanic aka ingredients combination, cauldron as reward)
2. Cauldron must be brought down to the cellar (endless runner mechanics + player "learns" to jump. A simple level with no enemies here, you get this "BOOOM!" as reward)
3. Pepper receives now a goal (here "to get potion of cleaning"). And if there are unlockable skills she has now the broom (simple attack). End of tutorial.

Your ingredient ideas are so awesome! They will be definitely considered.
Ingredient suggestion from @craigmaloney made me laugh! x)

[Deevad]

What about automatic skill activation on collision with a potion in-game? This is maybe the simplest way for the player. But boring?

It's not boring, adding this type of 'bonus' can even helps you to create interesting level design. Good bonus/weapon/new-skill items on the way always motivates the players to grab them, jump here, drag attention and get more micro-reward feeling on the way. It's good tools to create rich level design.

It will be more easy to understand brewing-mechanics with book, or?

I like the idea. Maybe this book can be static and only list the "achievement", a list of ingredients the user has grabbed so far and also mentioning (grayed out) the remaining ingredients to grab ( especially if each level ends with a special ingredients ). A sort of road-map themed as a recipe. All this ingredients maybe only useful for creating the potion to end the game: the big potion of cleaning everything.

Getting skills on level progress: do you mean you unlock them forever or that the skill is bound to a level? I think unlocking forever is better.

I thought "unlocking them forever" too. It can be combined with the player just having the skill available but not ability to action it in a unlimited way. This way, you can add 'bonus' item on the level to farm this skills.

Something like this [...] ( 1. , 2. 3. ) [...]

Oh, I like your idea to transform the intro storytelling into in-game levels, using them as tutorial too. Very intelligent!

[craigmaloney]

One thing I would caution is adding too many controls. Phone platforms can do swipe / tap without too much problem. Once you start getting into different areas for tapping / double tapping you run into problems.

Another caution I'd add is making the game complex by adding too many controls to it. If the idea is to show different characters / different effects to make it more engaging then that's one thing, but adding too many things can lead to confusion / frustration. There has to be an in-game benefit for using additional skills, and it need to be obvious to an experience player that they get an additional benefit from using that skill. Otherwise it's useless chrome (at best), or a stumbling block (at worst).

Were I designing this I may have different levels have a special ability that Pepper uses per level. Sort of a different "smart bomb" that she can call on. So some levels may have Carrot come in and dispatch an enemy, or the Chaosah hole may come in to wipe away the enemies on the board. But only one type per level, and limited in the number of invocations (so there's a resource-management component to it as well).

Hope this gives a little insight. I'd be more than happy to discuss this further if you would like. :)

[WinterLicht]

@craigmaloney, I think so too and do not plan to add various control types. Single tap should be enough. Other challenge is adding not too many buttons.

One idea for further development could be to add many different features/mechanics and then sort out and remove these which are unnecessary after testing everything. I mean, I do not have a release deadline here.
To summarize ideas (as far as I understood):

For overall game progress:

• a special ingredient for each new completed level (without ingame effects, only as achievement/story progress/completion, "book - road-map themed as a recipe")

Special skills:

• unlocking a new special skill (forever) for each new completed level (can be automatic unlock or in form of a new obtained recipe or ingredient)
• a certain skill is usable only for certain level (limited uses)
• preparation of skill potions to determine available special skill and number of uses before starting a level
• triggering effects on collision with special level tiles (binding special skills to level elements)

Background story:

• the idea for background story and tutorial sequence

Taking into account:

• limited use of special skills
• hard to focus on availability of special skills
• mechanics must be easy to understand (for example no super complex farming or potion/skill combination mechanics)

[craigmaloney]

I think the approach of one skill / level makes sense. That adds a bit of variety to the levels. It also pulls back a lot of the meta-game. The ideal running game should be able to be played for a few minutes in a shopping line. So adding lots of other meta-game elements will bog down the game and make it less interesting.

So the ingredients should be used to unlock certain spells which are useful in Pepper's basement. (eg: the black hole is useful in certain levels, but need several ingredients to unlock the spell).

Also: I wouldn't get too bogged down in trying to give a tutorial sequence. The game should be simple enough that a few tries will get you where you need to go.

[Elmapul]

First level(s) Jump only alone. ( Carrot don't want to help )
dont want or maybe is sleeping on the background?

i like the banjo kazooie concept of learning new moves along the game, instead of introduce all of then at once, giving to many moves from the start may limit the level design.
(eg: if the player has more than 1 option to win advance part of an level, you have to balance it for each option otherwise the player may find an way to make the game became to easy, or if you have too many movments but you cant use all of then, its frustrating, limiting the optins on the begining of the game make it easier to level design the first levels)
https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/7095111/22084175/4f108bca-ddcf-11e6-89d4-7d7e95b1efdd.png
this concept of first ingredient reminds me of PotionMaker

[Elmapul]

One thing I would caution is adding too many controls. Phone platforms can do swipe / tap without too much problem. Once you start getting into different areas for tapping / double tapping you run into problems.

what about an knob button?
this whell:

looks like an spining whell.

another possibility is an context aware button, like in ocarina of time or conkers bad fur day.