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<html><head></head><body><ul>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach @mheusser If you count Internet Time, it's likely still a 20 year cycle, and we're perhaps 10 years into it.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779365663">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:49:38 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: Lot's of fun last night at #AgileOttawa with @eegrove facilitating Agile Games!
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779412298">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:50:28 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: .@eegrove warned us that one of the games at #AgileOttawa "could get violent". Sure 'nuf, I ended up on my butt on the floor! :)
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779458948">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:51:18 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca 10 years into what?
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15779557006">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:53:04 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @IanSkerrett Gee, that isn't a hockey stick on the effort-time graph, is it? :)
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779584119">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:53:33 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach Roughly 10 years into moving away from the traditional phased approach to system development, with testing a...
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779654791">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:54:48 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach ...separate activity.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779668783">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:55:03 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca I don't think we are moving away from those things, as an industry.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15779823325">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:57:45 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach OK. I'm seeing a difference, although I'm an Agile Coach and thus am in orgs that *are* moving away from it.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15779897012">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:59:02 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca But the agile movement has popular roots going back to the late 80's, at least.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15779927815">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:59:35 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>mgaertne</strong>: @daverooneyca @jamesmarcusbach now, the question is whether we should move away from it or not :)
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/mgaertne/statuses/15779932489">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 12:59:40 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca I count it from the publication of The Olduvai Imperative, Gilb's Evolutionary Development, Peopleware, and the spiral model.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780027917">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:01:12 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca You can also find agile behaviors in the 60's and prior.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780079603">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:02:04 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach OK. When was SQL first defined? When was Object Oriented Programming 1st defined. I look for the first real...
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780156078">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:03:25 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach ...commercial adoption or application. For both of those it was around 1978-1980, and it took 20 years for them...
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780200314">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:04:11 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach ...to become 'assumed'. It took 10 years to get to the point of becoming 'cool' outside of early adopters.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780232853">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:04:45 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach Absolutely! I tell ppl all the time that a lot of agile behaviours existed in the 1950's.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780254858">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:05:08 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach I constantly refer ppl to Royce's 1970 paper that DISCREDITS waterfall! :)
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780278555">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:05:32 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach I also point out that Royce's paper was published a month before I started Kindergarten. How many other practices...
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780311201">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:06:07 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach ...do people do that are predicated on the computing environment of 40 years ago?
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780339921">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:06:36 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca You are citing tools. Agile doesn't come from tools. (but TDD largely does, I concede)
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780346828">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:06:43 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach Tools? What tools did I cite?
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780383955">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:07:23 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach OK, SQL and OO.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780410553">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:07:51 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca Yeah, I saw a FIPS conference paper from the 60's about how to develop and test "large-scale" applications...
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780427770">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:08:09 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach I see those less as tools as methods of thinking, but I understand how why you think they're tools.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780434248">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:08:16 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach Perhaps for SQL I should have said relational data management.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780465510">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:08:49 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca It says that large-scale projects require vastly different methods. "Large-scale" defined as 10 programmers or more!
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780488032">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:09:13 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca I worked at Borland in the C++ group. OO is definitely a tool... OO *thinking* is optional and not so widespread.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780565793">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:10:32 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach "Large-scale defined as 10 programmers or more!" :)
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<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780568399">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:10:35 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
</li>
<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach I'm seeing more and more that the methods aren't vastly different. Different, yes, but not vastly.
<br />
<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780598363">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:11:07 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca As of 1991, the programmers in the C++ group at Borland were largely still thinking and programming in C.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780608480">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:11:17 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach "OO *thinking* is optional and not so widespread." Absolutely agreed. Still better than anything else I've seen.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780642782">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:11:52 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>mgaertne</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach @daverooneyca There is a bunch of coders still thinking in C, though using Java or some other hip language...
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<a href="http://twitter.com/mgaertne/statuses/15780677415">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:12:27 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach As of 2010, the programmers at my current large telecom client are largely still thinking and programming in C. :)
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<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780696714">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:12:46 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<li style="margin: 1em;">
<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca I like OO, too. I'm sold. And I like TDD. But lots of Scrummers aren't actually doing TDD, are they?
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780723505">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:13:13 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach That's more a function of "fear of changing code" than it is any lack of desire to learn OO.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15780729728">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:13:20 +0000 2010</span>
</a>
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<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca @mgaertne My point is that this was the group developing and selling the leading C++ compiler!
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780788865">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:14:19 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca I just remember a new guy, Simon Field, coming in and making a big stink about how we weren't practicing what we preached.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780876994">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:15:44 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>mgaertne</strong>: @daverooneyca @jamesmarcusbach Ouch! But the tool vs. approach thing is the same for the thing they use to call ATDD.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/mgaertne/statuses/15780899296">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:16:06 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca He led the development of a new debugger on strict OO lines, also was the first I ever saw to do paired programming.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780938338">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:16:44 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>jamesmarcusbach</strong>: @daverooneyca Simon's a remarkable fellow.
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<a href="http://twitter.com/jamesmarcusbach/statuses/15780989249">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:17:35 +0000 2010</span>
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<strong>daverooneyca</strong>: @jamesmarcusbach Ah, a key commonality regardless of tools, approaches, etc. - remarkable PEOPLE!
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<a href="http://twitter.com/daverooneyca/statuses/15781065424">
<span style="font-size: 75%;">Wed Jun 09 13:18:54 +0000 2010</span>
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</ul></body></html>