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<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>A revealing <em>Four Corners</em> investigation
into politicians behaving badly. The former
prime minister Malcolm Turnbull is here to take
questions. Also tonight, America, China, Biden,
Trump, and secret letters to the Queen. Welcome
to Q+A.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I’m here with Josie Cullen, who has our first
question tonight. Answering your questions: the
former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull; the
former foreign minister Bob Carr; Journalist Jan
Fran is here; <em>The Australian</em>’s
editor-at-large, Paul Kelly; and in Melbourne,
historian and author of <em>The Palace
Letters</em>, Jenny Hocking. Please make all
of them feel welcome.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, Josie, what’s your question?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JOSIE CULLEN</strong></p>
<p>The majority of politicians are men, and there’s
continual reference to the “boys’ club”. Why is
this such a hostile environment for women to
enter, and how can we support and level out the
playing field?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>And so, just to be clear, you submitted that last
week, before any of us knew about this <em>Four
Corners</em>. You have just watched it. What
did you make of it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JOSIE CULLEN</strong></p>
<p>I found it really concerning how much focus there
was on, I guess, politicians engaging in
affairs, and that leaving them open to
compromise. And it felt like there was a bit of
lacking concern around the support for the women
in these staffing roles and the compromise they
were being left open to and the possible
advantage they were being taken of and the
pressure with that power imbalance.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>OK. Jan Fran, I want to turn to you first up.
You’ve just seen that program as well. Your
reaction?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN, BROADCASTER AND
JOURNALIST</strong></p>
<p>I have. Oh, my reaction is, keep it in your
bloody pants, mate. That’s my reaction. Yeah...
Keep it in your pants. I just... I want to come
back to your point about the issue of...of
compromise. ‘Cause I think there was a note for
me in that broadcast where, you know, you were
talking about...Malcolm, about the compromise
that perhaps Christian Porter and Alan Tudge
might have put themselves in, and that it’s not
a good look for them. I think the bigger
question here is around the women, and exactly
as you said, Josie – and I’m so glad that you
asked that question – well, where do they go if
they feel like they need support? Is silence
complicity in a situation like this?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One of the other telling things, for me, in that
broadcast, right, was this really small detail.
And I’m gonna place a bet that you sort of feel
very similarly, but the WhatsApp group, the
WhatsApp group that the Liberal women had and
that they were sharing stories in. This is not
new. This has been happening since the dawn of
time. And I can guarantee you that every
friendship group, women in various professions,
every family WhatsApp group, they have got a
thread about men that are creepers, men that are
horny, men that are abusive, men that you need
to stay away from. It is a warning call that
women have had for so long. And now, everybody
is hearing about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>These were consensual relationships, though, that
were reported tonight.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>Yep.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>Why is this in the public interest to know about
it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>Well, first of all, I mean, I think, in the case
of Christian Porter, he’s billing himself as
somebody who is a family man. Alan Tudge is the
same. Voted no on the same-sex marriage
plebiscite on the basis that a family unit is
very important, and you must have family values.
I don’t care who you’re schtuppin’ at the end of
the day, right, and there are relationships that
form in workplaces and they go on to become very
fruitful relationships. What I care about,
though, is the hypocrisy. If you are out here
espousing family values and you are having an
affair, then you are a hypocrite and you don’t
get to talk about values, as I know Alan Tudge
loves to talk about.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>Malcolm Turnbull, you pulled Christian Porter
into your office for a meeting on 6 December
2017. You talked to him about this, you say he
acknowledged it. Why did you then promote him on
20 December?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL, FORMER PRIME
MINISTER</strong></p>
<p>Well, look, just to be clear, Porter came to see
me to talk about something else. And the... I
had heard these reports of him being out
drinking and being drunk in the company of young
female staffers. I was not aware of any
suggestions that it was anything more than that.
And I gave him the very sensible advice that I
did. And he... You know, he didn’t argue with
me, he didn’t say, “I wasn’t there, it wasn’t
me,” or anything like that. He acknowledged
that. And, you know, I assumed that he wouldn’t
do it again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>But you said...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>I mean, you know, I wasn’t...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>But, to be fair, on <em>Four Corners</em>, you
said the reason you had to have this
conversation was because he might be compromised
– that Canberra was a city of spies...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Mm, yeah. Mm.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>...not all of them are on our side, doing this
sort of thing might compromise him. You
then...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Well, potentially...potentially...yes,
potentially, it could. Yeah, no, I agree. I
mean, I think it’s... It was my... You know,
look, I’m not... (CHUCKLES) I wasn’t trying to
be censorious about it. It is... You have a lot
of personal conversations as Prime Minister. I
mean, you’re kind of like... In some respects...
You know, generally, your office deal with a lot
of these issues. But sometimes there are
conversations that only the PM can have, and
that was one of them. And basically, my advice
to him was, “It must...” you know, “This sort of
thing must never happen again.” Now, there’s a
lot of stuff about Christian Porter in that
program that I was...I did not know at the time
and, frankly, I didn’t know until tonight. So it
is... You know, but from my point of view,
ministers should behave themselves, you
know...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>But, see...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>...decorously when they’re in public. And I mean,
I... You know, Jan makes a point about people,
you know, being able to have their private lives
as they wish, and I think there’s a lot to be
said for that. The only point I made was that
they should not have sexual relations with their
staff. That has been, you know, out of order in
the private sector for, as I said in the
program...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>Can I just make...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>...I would say for at least 20, probably 25
years, if not longer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>Can I just make a quick point on that? Because,
you know, you had been aware of some of the
allegations about Christian Porter and some of
the stuff that he might have been involved
with.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Well, that’s not... Well, that’s actually not
right. I don’t want to sound... (CHUCKLES) I
don’t want to sound like I was...I wasn’t paying
attention, but when you’re Prime Minister of
Australia, you are very focused on running the
country, right? And...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>But the question around why you promoted him, I
think, speaks to a bigger issue around the
culture, right?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>You think I was too forgiving?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>I think you were too forgiving.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>OK.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>And I think this is the problem that... Yeah, I
do.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>I’ve got a...I’ve had a reputation for being too
forgiving all my life.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>Well, I mean, that’s a diplomatic way of putting
it, though, as well. Because I think what a lot
of women really care about and really, you know,
know is happening...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Mm. Mm.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>...is that it’s not just the men that might
behave inappropriately, but it’s all of the
padding around them that allows them to be
elevated further and further up the power chain.
And I think everybody’s got to look at
themselves and ask, “OK, well, how am I enabling
that? How am I supporting that? What am I doing
in this instance?” Even though you’re not the
person that might have...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Look, Jan, I think that’s fair criticism.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>You know? Yeah.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>I think that is fair criticism. At the time, you
know, I was aware of there having been an
incident that had, you know, got a bit of
notoriety. You know, I had the impression that,
you know, he drank...he was drinking too much.
Again, that he wouldn’t be Robinson Crusoe in
Canberra in that regard. So I gave him some
fatherly or avuncular advice, which he accepted,
didn’t argue with me. But you may be right –
maybe I was too...too forgiving.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>I think we just need to be specific about this.
Was it a mistake to appoint him to a position
where he had oversight of the Independent
National Security Legislation Monitor, the
Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security,
and that he would sit on the National Security
Committee?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Well, look, I...I don’t think so. I obviously
didn’t think so at the time. I didn’t... I...
You know, I treated it as though it was a...you
know, a misjudgement, an error, a...you know,
he’d done the wrong thing, he’d been
injudicious, whatever you want to call it. But,
you know, there was a... There’s a lot of stuff
in the program tonight about patterns of conduct
that I wasn’t aware of. So it is... You know,
really, I mean, Jan’s making a point that I may
well have been too forgiving. I think,
certainly, if I’d known at the time...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>I think the point is that you were wrong.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>If I had known at the time what was broadcast
tonight, I would have take...I would have made
further inquiries before I made him
Attorney-General. I think that’s true.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>Bob Carr, the truth is, this is not unique to one
side of politics, this sort of culture, is
it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>BOB CARR, LABOR FOREIGN MINISTER</strong>
</p>
<p>Let’s look at the...a couple of underlying
principles here beyond the two cases of
ministers taken apart on the program. I think
the first principle is one that’s got to be
absolutely adhered to and insisted on, and I’d
be extremely disappointed if it weren’t being
adhered to, in Canberra or in any other
parliament. And that is that women should not
feel harassed or pressed to deliver sexually for
male bosses. That’s the key principle.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Yep.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>BOB CARR</strong></p>
<p>And there was too much of that in the past in
Australian workplace cultures. And I think...I
think it’s fair to say the <em>Four Corners</em>
program didn’t say that was the case with these
two affairs where women spoke out. But I would
like to think that we have moved beyond that in
the workplace culture in a parliament house.
That’s the first principle. And we ought to make
sure that our anti-discrimination laws see that
women – including young, vulnerable women,
especially maybe in their first job in a
minister’s office – never feel they can be
harassed by a sort of Roger Ailes figure, if you
think of <em>The Loudest Voice</em> – that great
encapsulation of how awful and oppressive these
bosses have been in the past. So I think that’s
the first principle.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>Jenny Hocking, Canberra, as you know from your
work as an historian, has always been a city of
secrets, hasn’t it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JENNY HOCKING, EMERITUS PROFESSOR, MONASH
UNIVERSITY</strong></p>
<p>Oh, it has, and for a long time, these sorts of
things, there was a tacit agreement that they
just weren’t revealed publicly by the media or
by other politicians. It’s a very good thing
that that’s changed. What concerns me about the
things that were being revealed in the program
today – and it was a pretty devastating portrait
– is that we’re looking fundamentally at a real
power imbalance within the workplace. And I
think that’s the essence of the difficulty here,
is that women – particularly younger women, as
Bob said, perhaps going into their first job –
are not in the same position in terms of power,
if it is a boss, in fact, seeking to have that
relationship, even if it is consensual. So,
there are some real issues there, I think, that
suggest this is perhaps endemic, something that
perhaps needs to be addressed far more strongly
than it is. And I congratulate Malcolm Turnbull
for introducing what was called the “bonk ban”,
because I think it at least is strengthening the
recognition that that sort of power imbalance in
the workplace does cause great difficulties.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And it was striking in one of those stories that,
of course, it was the woman involved who left
her job and, as she said, she left a job that
she loved, that she had been in for several
years. And that is typically the pattern – that
it is the women who suffer out of that
relationship once it ends, it’s the women who
lose their jobs, and yet things go on, as we’ve
seen with Christian Porter and others.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>But on the bonk ban, Jenny, is it...?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Jenny’s absolutely right, Hamish. That is... And
I just want to strongly reinforce that. And I
think I made that point at the time I introduced
the bonk ban, that the... Terrible name, but
we’re stuck with it. But the reality is, what
happens in relationships like this, it is always
the junior person, who is very often a woman,
who is then...either loses her job or gets moved
somewhere else. You know, it is... And that’s
why it just shouldn’t happen, you know? Not in
2017.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>With respect, Malcolm, didn’t you oversee the
continuation of that culture by promoting
Christian Porter?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Well, no. I mean, Porter... Look, we’ve just got
to be very clear about this. I mean, what I was
advised of was that Porter had been out drinking
too much in the company of young female
staffers. That was literally all I knew. There’s
much more... All of...a lot of detail in the
program tonight, I was not aware of. That was
literally all I was aware of, and I took the
opportunity of just reminding him that that was
unacceptable, and that, you know, he basically
had to turn it up and behave himself. And that
was the... But I wasn’t aware of any suggestion
that he was having an affair with somebody who
worked for him, or... I’m not even sure whether
that was alleged in the program.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>OK.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>So... But certainly, my information was related
to, you know, drinking too much in the company
of young female staffers. I mean, look, I’ve got
a very good recollection of the discussion
because I was...as an old lawyer, I sat down as
soon as it was over, and I wrote a very detailed
account of the meeting.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>Paul Kelly, is Christian Porter the right person
to be pushing through a National Integrity
Commission for Australia?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, <em>THE
AUSTRALIAN</em></strong></p>
<p>Well, what we saw tonight was a total caricature
of Christian Porter. And what this program does,
it raises a lot of fundamental questions. There
are a lot of issues here – the culture of the
parliament, which is still dominated by...by
male concepts, male power – that’s got to be
addressed a lot more – the problems with the
Liberal Party, the toxic culture of the Liberal
Party. But we’ve also got to address the media.
What the ABC has done tonight is that it’s
crashed through some media barriers and created
new media barriers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, how far do we go in terms of our definition
of ‘the public interest’? That program was about
two senior ministers, and it was essentially, in
the case of one of them, about an affair he’d
had. Now, politicians have affairs. Ministers
have affairs. I’ve known prime ministers who’ve
had affairs. So, we’ve got to ask ourselves how
far we go in terms of the definition of ‘public
interest’. And we should have a debate about
this. I understand the logic in the program. I
understand that. But I think there are doubts
about how far this program went.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And in the case of Christian Porter, this is
someone who’s served with distinction in the
West Australian parliament and in the national
parliament, and is trashed tonight as someone
who’s nothing much more than as a young man who
vomited in a bag, kissed girls, and was a
committed sexist. So, we need to be very careful
about the damage we do to people’s reputation
here, and ask ourselves, “Is that an accurate
portrait, or was it a caricature?” That’s a
really important question to ask.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>HAMISH MACDONALD</strong></p>
<p>So, are you saying this stuff was not in the
public interest? Is that your claim?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Well, what I’m saying, Hamish, is we have to have
a debate about how far the public interest goes,
because that program has redefined what’s in the
public interest. Now...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>JAN FRAN</strong></p>
<p>In what way, though?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Well, as I just said. I mean, I understand the
argument here in terms of the treatment of
women, and...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>But, Paul, your employers at News Corp thought it
was in the public interest to take a picture of
Barnaby Joyce’s former staffer, Vikki Campion,
as she was walking across the road, pregnant
with his child – put her on the front page of
The Daily Telegraph. So, that was obviously...
You’d say that was in the public interest, would
you?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Well, what I would say, Malcolm, is just make the
obvious point that the Barnaby Joyce situation
is a different situation to the Christian Porter
situation, OK?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Oh, yeah. But I’m just saying...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Now, I’m not saying that...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>Yeah, OK.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Well, I mean...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>But the bottom line is it was the... You know, it
was...that was... I mean, Barnaby is still very
aggrieved by that. Vikki Campion is very
aggrieved by that. You know, she was...she was
sort of... Obviously, she was, you know, caught
unawares by a photographer, probably, you know,
not feeling she was looking her best, and it was
a... You know, there it is. But I think the
journalist got an award for it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>PAUL KELLY</strong></p>
<p>Of course, but...but, Malcom...</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>MALCOLM TURNBULL</strong></p>
<p>(LAUGHS) Well, you say “of course,” which just
means that everything you’ve just said is
contradicted by your endorsement of that