HYJFgyqs0sM.srt

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Boom,
and we're live.

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Ladies and gentlemen.
Heather hiring Bret Weinstein.

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I didn't screw it up this time.
Nope,

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you got it right.
God,

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I get that.
Steen,

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stine thing messed up with you again.
I apologize.

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Just a bad time to get those messed up.
So thanks for having us.

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Thank you for being here.
Both of you.

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I'm very excited about this 
conversation.

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Really excited about it.
Too.

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Little bit nervous in one way,
but,

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but pretty,
pretty jazzed.

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Well,
I think it's good to be nervous about 

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it.
You know what I mean,

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what we're talking about folks,
what we would like to talk about is why 

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don't you explain it?

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Well,
uh,

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I think,
and heather and I have been on an 

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interesting adventure.
We are evolutionary biologists.

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We trained with some of the finest 
evolutionary biologists of the 20th 

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century and we have been teaching.
We taught for habitat for 15 years.

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I taught for 14 years at Evergreen and 
we spent a lot of time,

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uh,
dealing with students and trying to help

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them see how clarifying and evolutionary
viewpoint is with respect to 

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understanding what a human being is and 
how we functioned and how we interact.

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And that was very enjoyable to us and it
was very empowering to students to 

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discover that there was actually a way 
of removing a lot of the confusion of 

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being a,
a person and we're now watching the 

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conversation out in civilization about 
sex and gender devolve into an 

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absurdity.
And on the one hand that's kind of 

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frightening.

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I mean for,
for,

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for us,
it's not directly an issue were happily 

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married.
And so what we're not having to navigate

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romance out in the world these days.
And our kids are too young to be 

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navigating it.
Yet maybe this will all be clarified by 

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the time they're involved in dating.
But we also have a tremendous number of 

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millennial friends,
former students who are trying to 

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navigate this stuff and finding it 
difficult and bewildering to hear a 

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conversation that frankly,
there's a,

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a much better alternative.
If one can stand to think in 

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evolutionary terms,
if we can really look at ourselves as we

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are,
as we came to be through evolutionary 

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forces than actually we can improve the 
landscape for romance and dating a great

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deal,
but we can't do it if we're committed to

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very simple truisms that actually 
aren't.

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Right.
What

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is disturbing both of you most about 
what's going on right now?

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Well,
I think we'd love to see a third way.

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So they're the pre moderns as it were,
have very traditionalist conservative 

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that sucker up.
Close to say that.

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No worries.
Yeah,

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perfect.
The premodern.

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So you have a very traditional 
conservative approach to gender roles,

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to sex,
to relationship.

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And uh,
there are a lot of us

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in the modern world who would reject a 
lot of that.

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And then there are the postmoderns who 
want to throw out everything.

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I want to throw out everything that 
evolution handed us.

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And in the meantime,
pretend that it didn't happen,

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right?
Pretend that it's not even based on 

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reality and there is a,
there's a third way and you know,

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maybe we need to call it modern as 
opposed to pre or postmodern,

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but uh,
there's,

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there's a third way to navigate what 
evolutionary is,

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what evolution has given us,
what we can change,

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what we can't change,
and how to actually recover some of,

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you know,
the sexiness and sex and the love and 

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love and the romance and romance and you
know,

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understand that human beings are what we
are from not just 100 years back,

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but a thousand and $10,000
100 million years back.

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We've had sex

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since you both taught at a university 
level,

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you,
you've been around these students and 

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you,
you've seen this sort of postmodernist 

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movement gained steam.
What,

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what do you think is the cause of it?
Like what?

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What is the reason why people are 
projecting this sort of distorted idea?

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That there's no differences between men 
and women and that all the differences 

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in the genders are all.
It's all propaganda or cultural or.

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So I think it actually arises from a 
relatively simple cause that we all 

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detect there's something not right about
what we've been taught.

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We detect there's something not right 
about the way civilization is 

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structured.
We can tell that there's nobody really 

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at the helm and you have a lot of people
who are faced with some issue that to 

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them is incredibly glaring.
Something that just absolutely needs to 

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be solved.
And so what they do is they look at that

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issue and they say,
what would we have to,

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what would we have to say in order for 
that issue to be fully addressed?

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And the problem is that we're dealing 
with a complex system and if you 

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optimize for any one solution,
you cause a catastrophe across all of 

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the other things that it's connected to.
And if you're not focused on those 

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unintended consequences,
you tend not to understand why people 

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are resistant to your solution.

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So for example,
let's deal with the transgender issue 

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for the transgender community,
and I don't know,

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this is not a monolith community.
I actually know quite a number of people

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within it who have a heterodox position.
But in general,

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there's a sense that it is disrespectful
not to simply recognize anybody who has 

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decided to transition as a full fledged 
member of the sex to which they have 

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moved.
That seems right.

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And if you are focused on,
uh,

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the humanitarian side of the question,
maybe it even is right?

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But the problem is if you say a person 
who identifies as a particular sex is 

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that sex suddenly you've actually caused
a whole bunch of consequences that you 

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weren't thinking of over in a biology 
class over a,

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in the prison system.
I mean,

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is it true that somebody who says that 
they are female gets to go to a women's 

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prison?

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Do we want to put a violent sex 
offenders in a women's prison because 

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they declare themselves to be female?
So not tracking the consequences that 

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were not in your view when you decided 
on a particular solution is the reason 

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that so many people have signed up for 
these really absurd notions.

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And part of what I hope we will get to 
today is that there is a,

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a principal at the core of understanding
all complex adaptive systems.

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And it is diminishing returns and 
diminishing returns sounds kind of 

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arcane.
Um,

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it has to close in association with 
economics where it was first outlined.

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But the message of diminishing returns 
is that you can very often get 90 

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percent of a solution that you want and 
not disrupt other things unduly.

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But if you say,
I want a hundred percent of the solution

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to this problem,
you'll cause a catastrophe.

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So getting people to realize don't shoot
for the Utopia in which the problem 

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you're talking about is 100 percent 
solved.

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If you can accept a 90 percent solution,
then you can have a whole bunch of other

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things that you don't even realize 
you're using

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in defense of people that would try to 
go for 100 percent though,

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isn't it one of those things where like 
you,

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if you would negotiate,
you would.

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If you want $100 you asked for 150.

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Unfortunately.
I mean,

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I think you're identifying something,
correct that in part the positions that 

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we hear being deployed are not an honest
reflection of the beliefs of many of the

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people who are espousing them.
They're a negotiating tactic,

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but we can't do that with biology.
You can't negotiate with biology.

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Biology is what it is,
and then we can talk about which parts 

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of it are amenable to being changed.
And as heather pointed out,

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we're not advocating for a return to 
some traditional way of interacting 

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between the sexes.
We're advocating for,

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uh,
an enlightened way that takes advantage 

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of the freedom that we have that our 
ancestors didn't and tries to navigate 

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the hazards that were stuck with.
So you can't,

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you can't negotiate with biology.
You're really ought to listen to what it

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is that nature is telling you.
And then say,

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all right,
what does that leave open?

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Where can we shift things?
But if you're going to require that,

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we lie about what's true biologically in
order to navigate to a solution,

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I guarantee you it will be unstable in 
the end.

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Yeah.
The site guys to speak gun to include 

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such nonsense as chromosomes exist on a 
continuum.

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You know,
their x chromosomes and there a y 

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chromosome.
I haven't heard that one.

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One of our children just heard that his 
school,

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what did they mean by on a continuum?
Who even knows?

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I don't think they meant anything.
I think what they intended to do was 

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carve out freedom from a biological 
truth,

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and so if you say chromosomes are on a 
continuum,

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then it's very hard to disagree with 
that because it doesn't mean anything 

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that we can say.
It's actually really easy to disagree 

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with it and say,
no,

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no.
Gametes aren't on a continuum.

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Sperm,
sperm and eggs are eggs.

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Sorry.
Discreet to have them.

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Right.
Chromosomes also not on a continuum,

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at least in mammals.
Sex,

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yeah,
a continuum.

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They're Intersex is real,
but it's strongly by model,

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right?

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There's.
There are males and females and there 

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are a few people.
It's rare,

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but real that there are intermediate 
phenotypes and gender is even more of a 

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continuum,
but still strongly by modal.

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Have you folks heard about that?
New crayfish that they're battling in 

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Europe,
there's a giant crayfish in Europe 

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that's female and female only and 
essentially is a clone.

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They.
They reproduced by cloning so they don't

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need a male partner and they're going 
crazy and there's a lot of them.

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For your first two sentences there,
it sounded like there was a giant 

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sending on Europe.
It was a female.

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She's mad,
she's tired.

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All these lobster dinners and that's 
going to work for a while.

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Right,
and like asexuality is actually evolved 

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in a few lineages,
a few vertebrate lenses.

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There's some lizards that are asexual 
and it's all females and it goes great 

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until the environment changes because if
you're cloning yourself,

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you,
your children are going to experience 

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exactly are going to be exactly the same
thing that you were.

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So if you were a good fit for your 
environment,

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the next environment better be the same 
or else your kids aren't going to be a 

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good fit.
So my feeling is that crayfish,

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I haven't followed the story a lot,
but that crayfish is going to do 

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terrifically moving into exactly the 
landscapes that it first mutated into 

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existence in.
And if you change the landscape of bed,

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it's gonna stop doing.
So I think they just farm it for food if

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it's tasty.
Yeah,

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no worry about them breathing and get a 
ton of home together.

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Crayfish are delicious.
They are delicious.

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This is a good tasting variety.
It's free food.

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I know.
It's kind of crazy.

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So heather and I were talking before the
podcast started about over,

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I think a very important point when it 
comes to a lot of these,

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uh,
either progressive or right wing issues 

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is that people tend to be extremely 
tribal and what they're really concerned

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with is winning.

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It becomes a competition of US versus 
them.

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It becomes our side versus their side 
and they tend to exploit weaknesses and 

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then attack to score points and all the 
ideas of being honest intellectually or 

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looking at things objective,
kind of go out the window.

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You ignore facts that diminished your 
position or your team's position and 

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highlight things even if they're not 
real.

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That would diminish the other side's 
position.

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This is a real problem that humans have 
with arguments with,

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with being tribal,
with being on different sides.

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I mean,
we see it,

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we forget about tribes.
We see with people where when there's a 

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certain time,
when you see people arguing,

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there's a certain point where the 
argument has deteriorated to a 

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competition and it's no longer about 
what you're actually discussing.

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It's about who can win sciences for.
Yes.

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Yeah.
Well this is

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science ought to be indifferent.
When it's done well,

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it is indifferent to who's the stronger 
team.

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It should really just tell you what's 
true and in fact the reason to use 

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sciences to correct for biases,
but so eric and heather and I have a 

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phrase that is just shorthand for 
something which is bad.

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Faith changes everything.
There's a lot you can do in discussion 

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with people with whom you disagree as 
long as you are on the same page to a 

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large extent and what you're describing 
is what happens when that system breaks 

229
00:12:55,031 --> 00:13:00,031
down and people perceive themselves as 
needing to win against the enemy rather 

230
00:13:00,031 --> 00:13:04,651
than on a team that is trying to 
navigate to what is true or what is the 

231
00:13:04,751 --> 00:13:09,751
most desirable outcome with respect to 
values that we all share or something 

232
00:13:09,751 --> 00:13:14,671
like that.
So what you're describing is a very 

233
00:13:14,671 --> 00:13:15,550
common state.
It is a lower,

234
00:13:15,551 --> 00:13:20,551
less capable state than a good faith 
environment where people who may 

235
00:13:20,551 --> 00:13:24,811
disagree intensely agree on the basic 
rules and the desirability of figuring 

236
00:13:24,811 --> 00:13:29,071
out what's true and so maybe that's part
of what we can do here is try to point 

237
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:34,240
to where the good faith conversation can
get to that.

238
00:13:34,241 --> 00:13:38,150
The bad faith conversation is incapable 
of getting to the value really daily.

239
00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:40,380
Yeah,
I think that's a giant point.

240
00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:41,690
It really is,
and it's A.

241
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,760
I mean,
if it's really something that I would 

242
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:46,760
hope more people would adopt going into 
the future,

243
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,590
stop connecting yourself to these ideas 
and just let these ideas exist on their 

244
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:56,040
own and they examined them objectively 
and rely on science.

245
00:13:56,580 --> 00:14:00,210
Rely on actual science to formulate 
your.

246
00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:02,700
When you're talking about biological 
issues,

247
00:14:03,390 --> 00:14:05,730
when I say science is the answer to 
this,

248
00:14:05,940 --> 00:14:07,740
it's not necessarily that we should 
accept.

249
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,820
No one should accept the findings of 
science just at face value,

250
00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:16,850
but a scientific approach is I've gotten
this idea what would have to be true if 

251
00:14:17,101 --> 00:14:22,101
that were true and how can I possibly 
prove it wrong and you work harder and 

252
00:14:22,101 --> 00:14:26,571
harder and harder to prove it wrong,
and if you can't then you have greater 

253
00:14:26,571 --> 00:14:28,620
and greater and greater confidence that 
maybe it's right and so this,

254
00:14:28,621 --> 00:14:33,621
this is what we don't say in bad faith.
Arguments is no one is trying to prove 

255
00:14:33,621 --> 00:14:37,431
themselves wrong and that's,
I mean that sounds backwards the first 

256
00:14:37,431 --> 00:14:40,791
time you hear it,
but if you try to actually demonstrate 

257
00:14:40,791 --> 00:14:42,540
that your own cherished beliefs are 
wrong and you can't do it,

258
00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:46,890
you have pretty good confidence at the 
end of that and there is no actual end,

259
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,920
but the longer you've gone,
you have pretty good confidence that 

260
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:51,920
actually I'm probably seeing real here.

261
00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:53,000
I've asked myself,
I've asked,

262
00:14:53,001 --> 00:14:54,180
my friends,
have asked my enemies,

263
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,420
is this thing right?
And you know,

264
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,030
in an actual formal scientific setting,
you do an experiment,

265
00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:02,060
you run the data and you do the 
analysis,

266
00:15:02,061 --> 00:15:06,620
but is it right or is it not?
Let's see if I can prove it's not.

267
00:15:06,621 --> 00:15:09,520
Even though I really think it is really 
good test,

268
00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:14,860
you get a bonus that comes with it,
which is don't know what else to say.

269
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:20,740
It's super awesome,
which is if you've tried to take your 

270
00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:21,860
cherished ideas,
some hypothesis that you've come up with

271
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:27,100
and you've tried 16 different ways to 
show that it's wrong and you keep 

272
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:30,520
failing,
well every one of those things you did 

273
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,060
to see whether what you thought was true
was actually false.

274
00:15:32,270 --> 00:15:35,810
Now prepares you when somebody now 
challenges you and they say,

275
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,820
oh,
but you haven't thought of this.

276
00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:42,820
Well you have.
You have been through it 16 different 

277
00:15:42,820 --> 00:15:45,881
ways and that gives you the ability to 
navigate almost anything that's thrown 

278
00:15:46,251 --> 00:15:51,251
at you because you have taken on the 
role of being your own harshest critic 

279
00:15:51,251 --> 00:15:55,991
in order to make sure that what's left 
at the end of that process is really 

280
00:15:55,991 --> 00:15:59,441
robust.
The other thing that I want to insert 

281
00:15:59,441 --> 00:16:03,611
here is that I think a,
I don't want to be put in the position 

282
00:16:03,611 --> 00:16:07,841
of defending everything that's been 
published in the scientific literature 

283
00:16:07,841 --> 00:16:09,800
is true because it looks like science,
a lot of it isn't.

284
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,130
A lot of what's published in the 
scientific literature is not valid.

285
00:16:13,220 --> 00:16:18,220
The methodology does not establish what 
people claim it does and that's a big 

286
00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:21,671
hazard for,
for people like heather and myself 

287
00:16:21,671 --> 00:16:22,280
because you have to sort the wheat from 
the chaff in order to figure out what to

288
00:16:22,281 --> 00:16:24,290
defend and what to be agnostic about.

289
00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:29,740
Um,
but I do think those of us who more or 

290
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:33,851
less get the story of what let's say 
human sexuality is about at a scientific

291
00:16:34,251 --> 00:16:35,810
level and there's still a lot of 
mystery,

292
00:16:35,811 --> 00:16:40,811
but there's an awful lot that those of 
us who have studied it are in agreement 

293
00:16:40,811 --> 00:16:44,860
about and civilization is not yet on the
same page with those of us who have 

294
00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:47,330
looked at it scientifically.
One thing we have failed to do,

295
00:16:47,331 --> 00:16:52,331
I think,
is to articulate what you will get in 

296
00:16:52,331 --> 00:16:56,561
exchange for signing up for a scientific
worldview.

297
00:16:56,810 --> 00:17:01,810
On this topic,
people do not realize that a scientific 

298
00:17:01,810 --> 00:17:04,931
worldview is actually the thing that 
empowers you to navigate your own love 

299
00:17:05,781 --> 00:17:09,050
life in an intelligent way.
It will let you.

300
00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:11,360
It's a lot more fun than it sounds when 
you say it that way.

301
00:17:11,570 --> 00:17:12,390
Yeah.
It's.

302
00:17:12,490 --> 00:17:17,490
Well,
are all of these famous arguments about 

303
00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:20,060
unweaving the rainbow or you know,
somebody challenged fineman that,

304
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:21,290
um,
he,

305
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:26,300
he was the kind of guy who would take a 
part of flour and destroy its beauty in 

306
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,240
order to figure out how it worked and 
the trip science will destroy beauty.

307
00:17:29,420 --> 00:17:30,530
Right?
And it's not true.

308
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:31,850
No,
it's not true.

309
00:17:31,910 --> 00:17:36,910
You will get a lot of value.
You will waste less of your time on 

310
00:17:36,910 --> 00:17:37,760
people that you shouldn't be interested 
in.

311
00:17:37,940 --> 00:17:40,160
If you understand what game they're 
playing,

312
00:17:40,161 --> 00:17:45,161
even if they don't understand,
what do you think that arguments coming 

313
00:17:45,161 --> 00:17:47,651
from?
The argument that science would destroy 

314
00:17:47,651 --> 00:17:47,651
beauty?
Well,

315
00:17:47,651 --> 00:17:51,610
I think there's a way in which the hate 
the borrower chemical analogy here,

316
00:17:53,101 --> 00:17:58,101
but there's something called the 
activation energy of a chemical 

317
00:17:58,101 --> 00:18:01,161
reaction,
which is the energy necessary to get it 

318
00:18:01,161 --> 00:18:03,711
to happen and the activation energy for 
understanding your own self,

319
00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:11,090
your sexual self,
even as a product of evolution that is 

320
00:18:11,581 --> 00:18:16,581
wired in a particular way for particular
objectives that may or not be relevant 

321
00:18:16,581 --> 00:18:20,541
to your conscious person's objective,
that that takes a little bit.

322
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,360
It doesn't take forever,
but you know,

323
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,560
if we were teaching a class,
it might take three or four weeks full 

324
00:18:30,061 --> 00:18:34,470
time with one set of students before 
people who had walked through the door,

325
00:18:34,471 --> 00:18:37,320
not thinking in those terms at all 
about,

326
00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:42,540
uh,
their own love life could begin to spot 

327
00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:46,040
how this actually maps onto what they 
have experienced and what it suggests 

328
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:46,710
they might do differently.

329
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:51,710
So I think the answer to your question 
is it's not cheap to get through the 

330
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:52,560
door.
In the end.

331
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:57,620
It's an absolute bargain.
What advise you is so valuable compared 

332
00:18:57,620 --> 00:18:59,100
to what it costs you to,
to learn it.

333
00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:04,460
But it doesn't come immediately.
It's not like you know an aphorism that 

334
00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:06,690
you can adopt and suddenly your life 
functions,

335
00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:08,850
so let's start,
look,

336
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:14,040
but it begins to do as people start to 
realize the power of an evolutionary 

337
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,751
take on sex and gender or whatever it is
we're talking about is it opens up doors

338
00:19:18,631 --> 00:19:23,631
to inquiry and it makes.
It allows people to make sense of their 

339
00:19:23,631 --> 00:19:26,061
lives and then it becomes more beautiful
and more powerful and once people have 

340
00:19:27,421 --> 00:19:32,421
seen how you can use these evolutionary 
tools and the knowledge that evolution 

341
00:19:32,421 --> 00:19:37,071
that evolution has given us,
like male and female are universals like

342
00:19:37,140 --> 00:19:42,140
male and female have existed for over a 
hundred million years and everywhere it 

343
00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:45,300
shows up,
it looks really similar and yes,

344
00:19:45,301 --> 00:19:47,070
there are exceptions all over the place.

345
00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:52,070
There's amazing ways that you know,
like this crayfish that you have a 

346
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:56,810
sexually reproducing ancestor that's 
gotten asexual or you have six full 

347
00:19:56,810 --> 00:20:00,741
reversal in some species.
You have Gina's which have a very 

348
00:20:00,741 --> 00:20:02,280
strange system going on.
Lots and lots of these exceptions,

349
00:20:02,281 --> 00:20:06,570
but the truth underlying them is always 
the same and that's freeing.

350
00:20:07,050 --> 00:20:09,530
So actually that's beautiful.
Can we try it with the crayfish here?

351
00:20:09,730 --> 00:20:13,470
Sure,
so looking at this system,

352
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:18,590
you've got a creature that is capable of
going asexual and then spreading very 

353
00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:22,701
rapidly.
We have lots of examples of creatures 

354
00:20:22,701 --> 00:20:22,701
that do that,
right?

355
00:20:22,701 --> 00:20:22,701
Like so.
For example,

356
00:20:22,701 --> 00:20:27,290
Dandelions,
dandelions look like a regular old 

357
00:20:27,290 --> 00:20:30,051
flour,
but they're not a dandy lion are what's 

358
00:20:30,051 --> 00:20:32,781
called Apa mechanic and an academic Dick
means that they go through my tosas 

359
00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:38,420
instead of Meiosis and they produce a 
seed that isn't the product of sex and 

360
00:20:38,521 --> 00:20:41,220
that seed dispersers as if it was the 
product of sex,

361
00:20:41,221 --> 00:20:43,660
and so this does something for 
dandelions.

362
00:20:43,770 --> 00:20:48,770
It allows them to take over a landscape 
from one individual because it can just 

363
00:20:48,770 --> 00:20:51,670
spread and spread and spread without 
having to find mates.

364
00:20:51,671 --> 00:20:56,671
It's very effective,
but what we see in systems like heather 

365
00:20:56,671 --> 00:20:58,270
mentioned whiptail Lizard,
whiptail lizards,

366
00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:03,700
some populations are asexual and it's.
It's a really cool system.

367
00:21:03,701 --> 00:21:08,701
Actually.
I don't know if Jamie wants to bring up 

368
00:21:08,701 --> 00:21:09,940
a picture of a whip tail lizards,
but in the asexual populations,

369
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,790
females can.
I believe they cloned themselves,

370
00:21:12,791 --> 00:21:14,860
right?
It's more or less.

371
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:17,190
Yeah,
so they.

372
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,200
So the,
the reason we're talking about that is 

373
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:22,200
they're two different ways they could go
about it,

374
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:22,240
they could make two gametes and fuse 
them,

375
00:21:22,241 --> 00:21:24,100
or they can clone themselves.
They're effectively.

376
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:26,020
But the,
uh,

377
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,750
you look at that system and you say,
well,

378
00:21:29,410 --> 00:21:34,270
how can a population abandoned sex and 
be able to tolerate change?

379
00:21:35,020 --> 00:21:36,610
Well,
it has to do one thing,

380
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,420
which is it has to have some place to 
borrow genetic variation from.

381
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,190
So we see some very curious behaviors 
and these whips,

382
00:21:43,191 --> 00:21:44,470
males,
females,

383
00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:47,290
mount each other.
So basically you have,

384
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,720
you have females who stimulate each 
other to produce eggs that are not the 

385
00:21:56,171 --> 00:21:57,730
product of sex,
right?

386
00:21:57,731 --> 00:22:02,731
So they retain sexual behavior and then 
the student population and whether 

387
00:22:02,731 --> 00:22:07,441
they're playing the female role or the 
male role in the seed of copulation 

388
00:22:07,441 --> 00:22:08,560
depends on their status in the 
ambulatory cycle.

389
00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:12,550
But the kicker is,
and you know,

390
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,880
uh,
heather and I were actually teaching 

391
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,391
from this and trying to figure out how 
the system could possibly be stable 

392
00:22:21,391 --> 00:22:24,271
longterm.
And what we predicted actually was that 

393
00:22:24,271 --> 00:22:24,271
they had to be borrowing,
um,

394
00:22:24,271 --> 00:22:26,200
genetic variation periodically.
And they,

395
00:22:26,201 --> 00:22:27,580
it turns out that this is true,
they,

396
00:22:27,581 --> 00:22:29,400
how do they borrow genetic variation?
Well,

397
00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:34,410
the populations at the edge of these 
clonal populations are sexual and so and

398
00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:39,250
so in the future,
that's what everyone's hoping for.

399
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,650
Some people are hoping for that,
but that's one way.

400
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,540
But then we've got another one.
I mean,

401
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:50,830
I'm sure your audience isn't thrilled to
be talking about lizards necessarily,

402
00:22:50,831 --> 00:22:52,060
but okay.
Aphids,

403
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,850
aphids are asexual will.
How do they get away with being asexual?

404
00:22:56,860 --> 00:23:01,860
That seems like it would.
Everything we know about sex being so 

405
00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:03,130
valuable because of its role in 
producing genetic variation.

406
00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:05,020
Um,
what are the aphids doing?

407
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,560
Oh,
the aphids or sexual once a season.

408
00:23:08,890 --> 00:23:10,990
Right?
So they're asexual within the season and

409
00:23:10,991 --> 00:23:13,300
at the end of the season they breed 
sexually.

410
00:23:13,301 --> 00:23:18,301
And so the point is,
all of these exceptions are exceptions 

411
00:23:18,301 --> 00:23:22,231
that prove the rule that the,
the universality of sex in a complex 

412
00:23:23,980 --> 00:23:28,980
animals is I'm broken in certain cases,
but each case that it's broken has a way

413
00:23:29,711 --> 00:23:33,500
of recovering the value of sex.
And then go back to lizards referred one

414
00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:35,680
more lizard example.
Komodo dragons,

415
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,040
which at the biggest monitor lizards,
there's evidence from,

416
00:23:39,041 --> 00:23:42,730
I think it's just as soon as a that 
occasionally there's virgin birth,

417
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:48,110
right?
Occasionally females can produce young 

418
00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:48,110
without

419
00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:51,280
sex,
so occasionally individuals will go a 

420
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:51,280
sexual,
which right.

421
00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:53,480
Something that big.
That's crazy.

422
00:23:53,481 --> 00:23:54,980
That is.
It's very rare.

423
00:23:54,981 --> 00:23:56,750
Invertebrates at all and where it does 
happen,

424
00:23:56,751 --> 00:23:59,420
it tends to be lizards and it's still 
pretty rare as far as we know,

425
00:23:59,421 --> 00:24:04,421
but really for the most part it's.
It would only be in zoos that we would 

426
00:24:04,421 --> 00:24:04,430
know for the most part,
but the.

427
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:09,870
The hypothesis is that this is an 
adaptation for than these two.

428
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:14,300
These are big swimming lizards that are 
living on these islands.

429
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,900
They're relatively close together.
They can swim between these islands that

430
00:24:17,901 --> 00:24:22,901
having arrived at an island where 
there's none of none else that looks 

431
00:24:22,901 --> 00:24:27,221
like you,
it probably makes sense to clone 

432
00:24:27,221 --> 00:24:29,711
yourself at that point,
and actually I think they're not clone 

433
00:24:29,711 --> 00:24:29,711
all their parthenogenetic,
but it doesn't matter.

434
00:24:29,711 --> 00:24:30,390
They don't.
If,

435
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:34,280
if it requires two individuals to make 
that swim successfully,

436
00:24:34,340 --> 00:24:39,340
in order to populate a new island,
the chances are much lower than if it 

437
00:24:39,340 --> 00:24:42,911
just takes one,
and so you can get sex switched on and 

438
00:24:42,911 --> 00:24:43,280
off.
Even in Komodo dragons,

439
00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:45,860
that's crazy,
but it isn't.

440
00:24:45,910 --> 00:24:50,910
Think about how many times one of these 
animals must have crossed one of these 

441
00:24:52,030 --> 00:24:57,030
water barriers and been alone and where 
it had an island that it was perfectly 

442
00:24:57,030 --> 00:24:59,830
ecologically capable of exploiting.
It had no way of making offspring,

443
00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:01,810
right?
That's a terrible price to pay.

444
00:25:01,811 --> 00:25:04,150
In Darwinian terms,
if the solution is,

445
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:06,910
well,
let's suspend the requirement of sex for

446
00:25:06,911 --> 00:25:08,890
a generation,
produce some offspring,

447
00:25:08,891 --> 00:25:13,060
and then we can reinstate it,
so really more than likely,

448
00:25:13,061 --> 00:25:18,061
this happens a lot more than we think 
and because we assume that sex is the 

449
00:25:18,061 --> 00:25:19,120
explanation for vertebrates.
When we see them,

450
00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:24,540
when we encounter them in the wild,
we don't think is this individual the 

451
00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:25,750
result of a clonal event.
Whereas this individual,

452
00:25:25,751 --> 00:25:30,751
the result of sex,
we assume sex and it's only when 

453
00:25:30,751 --> 00:25:33,751
somebody puts them in a zoo in isolation
that we can be 100 percent certain.

454
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:39,900
There is no way this animal got 
fertilized by another animal and that's 

455
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,620
when we start asking the question,
but now that we've started to spot these

456
00:25:41,621 --> 00:25:46,621
things,
we're going to see them more and more 

457
00:25:46,621 --> 00:25:48,430
frequently because so many animals over 
evolutionary history have been caught in

458
00:25:48,431 --> 00:25:53,431
a situation that was paradise except for
the fact that there wasn't a second one 

459
00:25:53,431 --> 00:25:57,780
that is incredibly fascinating though.
They can just switch on and off like 

460
00:25:57,780 --> 00:25:59,650
that.
When and if you think about it,

461
00:25:59,710 --> 00:26:04,710
I mean,
monitor lizards are interesting because 

462
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:04,710
they are the,
uh,

463
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:08,350
the people say they are Mo.
They're the most mammal like

464
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,480
of,
of lizards that live over poor people 

465
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,480
who are combined are listed.
So you can look inTo their eyes and it's

466
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:14,540
a little bit like looking into a dog's 
eyes.

467
00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:16,540
They've been paying attention too much 
to lizards.

468
00:26:16,790 --> 00:26:19,900
Crazy things I've done.
Well.

469
00:26:20,210 --> 00:26:25,210
Most lizards do.
But these animals that give you a 

470
00:26:25,210 --> 00:26:25,210
different impression.
But,

471
00:26:25,210 --> 00:26:25,210
but here's the thing.
Yeah.

472
00:26:25,210 --> 00:26:28,520
But more than geckos,
more than lip tells more than maybe just

473
00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:30,530
bigger.
Yeah,

474
00:26:30,531 --> 00:26:31,120
and they're.
Well,

475
00:26:31,121 --> 00:26:34,370
they're big and long living with more 
information out of that big eyeball.

476
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:36,270
There's a little monitor.
Lizards don't.

477
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,700
People said the same thing about the 
little ones,

478
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:38,980
but

479
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:43,320
if you think about it,
what triggered this switch?

480
00:26:44,910 --> 00:26:47,760
Profound loneliness,
right?

481
00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:51,600
Profound loneliness would would cause it
so I don't know.

482
00:26:51,630 --> 00:26:56,630
It's impossible to say whether any 
lizards including monitors have 

483
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:59,020
something like loneliness.
Although in other cases,

484
00:26:59,021 --> 00:27:04,021
you know when we look at elephants,
we see clear evidence of grief and we 

485
00:27:04,021 --> 00:27:08,571
know that elephants didn't get grief 
from a shared ancestor with us that had 

486
00:27:08,571 --> 00:27:12,500
grief.
They separately evolved grief because 

487
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,120
they're complex social structures 
required for the same reason that ours 

488
00:27:15,391 --> 00:27:17,340
do.
So it's not impossible.

489
00:27:17,550 --> 00:27:20,790
That loneliness might not feel exactly 
the same to a monitor lizard,

490
00:27:20,791 --> 00:27:25,791
but if it had a value to detect how 
lonely you are and then to trigger a 

491
00:27:25,791 --> 00:27:29,961
physiological response that they're than
kickstarted the ability to be 

492
00:27:29,961 --> 00:27:31,440
evolutionarily successful that we would 
see.

493
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,680
We would see that kind of thing.
So I would love to see somebody try to 

494
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,131
figure out whether there was a cognitive
trigger that looked like loneliness in 

495
00:27:40,131 --> 00:27:44,500
monitor lizards that actually caused the
switch and if you could then maybe 

496
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:44,500
trigger it.

497
00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:49,910
Wow.
So like some something that you could 

498
00:27:49,910 --> 00:27:50,040
actually map and an mri or something on 
the brain,

499
00:27:50,041 --> 00:27:53,550
like you look at their little brain and 
see loneliness.

500
00:27:53,610 --> 00:27:54,840
Sure.
I mean you hit,

501
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:59,220
it hits a certain frequency and then 
eggs starts forming something.

502
00:27:59,280 --> 00:27:59,790
I mean,
you know,

503
00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:01,710
there would be some cascade,
but yeah,

504
00:28:01,711 --> 00:28:06,711
there'd be some perception that I 
haven't seen another one like being a 

505
00:28:06,711 --> 00:28:08,670
very long time and then it would cause 
some sort of a shift in behavior.

506
00:28:08,671 --> 00:28:12,180
Maybe it would coSt searching behavior 
and searching wouldn't let any evidence.

507
00:28:12,181 --> 00:28:13,430
There's no evidence,
you know,

508
00:28:13,431 --> 00:28:18,431
you don't necessarily have to see 
another individual to know that they're 

509
00:28:18,431 --> 00:28:18,431
around.
But anyway,

510
00:28:18,431 --> 00:28:20,220
there'll be some cascade of things.
And then maybe some,

511
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,520
uh,
a neurotransmitter would trigger the 

512
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,720
release of a hormone that would call it.
It would clearly be limited to females

513
00:28:29,020 --> 00:28:34,020
general,
although I don't go ahead because the 

514
00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:37,071
egg can,
it has all the cytoplasmic material 

515
00:28:37,071 --> 00:28:37,860
unnecessary to make another cell and 
sperm doesn't.

516
00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:38,840
Right.
So you know,

517
00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:43,910
sperm,
sperm and egg are just different and 

518
00:28:43,910 --> 00:28:44,940
eggs can't move and so they're stuck 
where they are.

519
00:28:44,941 --> 00:28:49,941
They have to be found a and m,
but they have all the cytoplasm and 

520
00:28:49,941 --> 00:28:54,741
sperm really fast but doesn't have any 
of the material necessary to make a 

521
00:28:54,741 --> 00:28:57,920
sale.
So a sperm can't mature into a zygote on

522
00:28:57,921 --> 00:29:00,190
fertilized because it doesn't have 
mitochondria and replacement,

523
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,770
particularly among all the other stuff 
of a cell.

524
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,040
So they're doing different things just 
like male and female are different 

525
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:07,040
strategies.
Egg and sperm are different strategies.

526
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,481
So there are certain animals or certain 
things that can switch sexes?

527
00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:13,830
Yes,
absolutely.

528
00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:18,860
Which also which organisms can do that 
while there's lots of refinish would be 

529
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,960
a big cluster of them.
I've heard about ocean fish or their 

530
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,930
land creatures that do that.
There's one frog where there's a little 

531
00:29:26,930 --> 00:29:31,341
bit of evidence,
but it seems that it may be an artifact 

532
00:29:31,341 --> 00:29:31,341
of a,
of a zoo setting effectively,

533
00:29:31,341 --> 00:29:33,420
which might mean that it can happen in 
the wild and we just haven't seen it,

534
00:29:33,421 --> 00:29:35,360
but it's well known in reef fish like 
there,

535
00:29:35,361 --> 00:29:38,720
there are a lot of species of reef fish,
uh,

536
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,290
that and it,
and it goes both ways.

537
00:29:40,291 --> 00:29:41,470
So this is called a

538
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,270
sequential hermaphroditism were a,
in some species there.

539
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:48,730
Everyone's born female and then some 
transition into males.

540
00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:51,220
And in some it's the other way around.
You transitioned from male to female.

541
00:29:51,221 --> 00:29:56,221
There's some spaces where you can go 
both ways and it depends on the sex 

542
00:29:56,221 --> 00:29:57,610
ratio around you and sort of what 
strategies there aren't enough of.

543
00:29:57,940 --> 00:30:02,940
So male and female are strategies and if
you are the most dominant female in a 

544
00:30:04,901 --> 00:30:09,901
landscape and the mail just died,
it makes sense to turn into a male so 

545
00:30:09,901 --> 00:30:10,810
that you can now fertilize all those 
females.

546
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,780
But they're also.
So that's the sequential,

547
00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:18,870
you know,
we're one individual will transition 

548
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:21,660
between sexes,
but there are also cases like turtles 

549
00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:26,220
where there's no chromosomal sex 
determination and the sex is effectively

550
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,340
chosen by the environmental conditions,
by temperature in the nest,

551
00:30:30,341 --> 00:30:33,670
and so one individual lives its entire 
life within a sex,

552
00:30:33,671 --> 00:30:35,980
but that sex was not dictated when the 
egg was laid,

553
00:30:35,981 --> 00:30:38,820
it was dictated by the environment the 
egg mature,

554
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,160
done.

555
00:30:39,340 --> 00:30:41,050
Isn't that the case with crocodiles as 
well?

556
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,280
Crocodiles,
and in fact,

557
00:30:42,310 --> 00:30:44,770
most,
most every vertebrate that we know,

558
00:30:44,771 --> 00:30:47,160
except for mammals and birds and the 
mammals and birds,

559
00:30:47,161 --> 00:30:49,780
it's a different evolution of genetic 
sex determination.

560
00:30:49,781 --> 00:30:51,850
So most lizards,
snakes,

561
00:30:51,851 --> 00:30:52,810
frogs,
crocodiles,

562
00:30:52,811 --> 00:30:57,811
turtles,
teleost fish have some kind of 

563
00:30:57,811 --> 00:30:59,740
environmental sex determination.
And actually as long as we're going down

564
00:30:59,741 --> 00:31:04,741
this road,
I promise you there's someplace cool to 

565
00:31:04,741 --> 00:31:04,741
go with school already.
Okay,

566
00:31:04,741 --> 00:31:05,050
good.
I never know.

567
00:31:05,051 --> 00:31:07,870
I never know how inTerested people are 
in the animal science,

568
00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:13,770
but um,
so in human beings and mammals and not 

569
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,960
all mammals,
the monitoring teams are exceptional in 

570
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,110
this regard.
But the kid doesn't platapus yeah,

571
00:31:20,111 --> 00:31:23,590
there are three species left on earth.
That's a remnant of an early,

572
00:31:23,740 --> 00:31:26,470
early branch on the mammal tree,
but um,

573
00:31:26,750 --> 00:31:29,320
in,
in most mammals like us,

574
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,380
we have chromosomal sex determination 
and males are x,

575
00:31:32,381 --> 00:31:35,860
y,
and females are xx in birds.

576
00:31:35,980 --> 00:31:40,980
The situation is exactly reversed as it 
is in butterflies.

577
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,440
So what that tells you is that to the 
extent that by reversed what brett means

578
00:31:44,441 --> 00:31:49,441
is,
and we just use different letters just 

579
00:31:49,441 --> 00:31:50,500
so as not to be confused,
males are so called homo comedic or ww,

580
00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:52,620
whereas in mammals,
females or hamburg,

581
00:31:52,621 --> 00:31:53,400
munich,
xx,

582
00:31:53,710 --> 00:31:55,720
and in birds,
males are comedic.

583
00:31:55,721 --> 00:32:00,721
Ww and females are wc,
which means that female birds can't 

584
00:32:01,631 --> 00:32:06,430
clone themselves as the way that,
say a komodo dragon could.

585
00:32:07,330 --> 00:32:12,330
But the reason I raise it is because we 
have a sense of male and female vet.

586
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,200
I think it's just wrong that male and 
female are actually akin to a niche that

587
00:32:21,191 --> 00:32:26,191
these are roles that the universe 
discovers periodically because they make

588
00:32:26,261 --> 00:32:27,430
sense,
right?

589
00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:28,830
So,
um,

590
00:32:31,270 --> 00:32:36,160
it's a convergence on a set of behaviors
that fit well together.

591
00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:41,190
Once you have a small mobile gametes,
you tend to acquire the traits that go 

592
00:32:42,441 --> 00:32:43,910
along with maleness.

593
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:49,150
And this is true,
when an animal switches sex in the 

594
00:32:49,150 --> 00:32:51,371
middle of its life,
the behavior switches along with the 

595
00:32:51,371 --> 00:32:54,560
gametes.
This is true between birds and mammals.

596
00:32:54,561 --> 00:32:58,070
So the which one has two different sex 
chromosomes,

597
00:32:58,071 --> 00:33:01,010
does not predict the behavior,
but which one lays the egg,

598
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,250
does predict the behavior,
and it gets even weirder than that.

599
00:33:04,730 --> 00:33:07,370
So jamie,
do you have that image of the flower,

600
00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:15,180
the image image of those?
Have you ever seen him look at this 

601
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:18,230
flower on the youtube version or what 
kind of flowers?

602
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:23,240
It,
it's actually just a diagram of a 

603
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,800
flower.
I just standard flower was that woman 

604
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,450
who makes those flower paintings at all 
according vagina's a Georgia?

605
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,230
Yes.
That's our joke here.

606
00:33:31,550 --> 00:33:34,340
So this is not her work.
She's a little obsessed.

607
00:33:35,140 --> 00:33:36,470
Talk to her.
No doubt.

608
00:33:38,020 --> 00:33:39,560
Hey lady,
do you paint other stuff?

609
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,220
So here's what I want to show you about 
this.

610
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,960
And I must say I love this point even 
though I'm,

611
00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:48,500
I'm less jazzed about plants than I am 
about animals.

612
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,780
Um,
if you look at the thing,

613
00:33:50,781 --> 00:33:55,781
there is labeled stigma.
The stigma is Connected to the style 

614
00:33:55,781 --> 00:33:57,500
which leads to the rules,
so the obvious ones are the.

615
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,750
The eggs essentially,
and the anthers are the place to produce

616
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,600
this pond.
So this flower is a hermaphrodite.

617
00:34:05,630 --> 00:34:10,630
It has both male and female parts,
but here's the really interesting thing.

618
00:34:11,630 --> 00:34:16,630
The female parts are kind of reluctant 
about sex with strangers.

619
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:19,460
The male parts are really enthusiastic 
about it,

620
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:20,810
right?
Really?

621
00:34:20,811 --> 00:34:25,811
Yes.
So those pollen grains will try to 

622
00:34:25,811 --> 00:34:29,261
fertilize anything they land on,
but that long style Is basically a test 

623
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,360
that the female part of the plant 
exposes any pollen grain to the pollen.

624
00:34:35,361 --> 00:34:40,361
Grain has to grow a pollen tube down 
that long style in order to get to the 

625
00:34:40,361 --> 00:34:40,550
eggs.

626
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:43,070
In other words,
that flower,

627
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:47,630
the female parts are koi and the male 
parts are a bit randy.

628
00:34:48,710 --> 00:34:53,710
Now this is one plant.
This is one flower that does not agree 

629
00:34:53,710 --> 00:34:57,380
with itself about how enthusiastic to be
about sex with strangers.

630
00:34:57,390 --> 00:34:59,390
So you can predict this just on the 
numbers too,

631
00:34:59,391 --> 00:35:00,560
right?
It's going to produce,

632
00:35:01,310 --> 00:35:06,310
I don't know what orders of magnitude 
more pollen than it has to be 

633
00:35:06,861 --> 00:35:11,861
fertilized.
Only got a few chances at picking the 

634
00:35:11,861 --> 00:35:15,131
right pond to be fertilized,
but the pollen can be broadcast and go 

635
00:35:15,131 --> 00:35:17,060
anywhere and if it's successful and it's
not that successful,

636
00:35:17,061 --> 00:35:18,710
it's still okay.
It's still kind of a win.

637
00:35:18,770 --> 00:35:23,770
So the payoff for putting up with 
talking about plants here is if you 

638
00:35:23,770 --> 00:35:28,691
realize there's something in the 
universe that even when it's building a 

639
00:35:28,691 --> 00:35:29,660
plant,
which is really not like an animal,

640
00:35:30,350 --> 00:35:32,540
even when it's building a plant and we 
look at and we say,

641
00:35:32,541 --> 00:35:33,980
ah,
these are the boy parts,

642
00:35:33,981 --> 00:35:34,970
and those are the girl parts.

643
00:35:35,330 --> 00:35:40,330
They actually have some analogy to males
and females amongst animals Where we can

644
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:45,500
spot the behavior easily and that,
that is mind blowing because you correct

645
00:35:47,731 --> 00:35:52,731
me if I'm wrong here,
but the common ancestor between these 

646
00:35:52,731 --> 00:35:55,590
plants,
these land plants that have a pollen and

647
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,480
[inaudible] like this and animals that 
have eggs and sperm,

648
00:36:00,650 --> 00:36:05,650
the common ancestor is a single celled 
photosynthetic ocean creatures,

649
00:36:08,850 --> 00:36:10,190
single cell creature.
It's not like.

650
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,450
So it's not a coMmon,
it's not,

651
00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:15,250
um,
it's not a complex creature.

652
00:36:15,251 --> 00:36:20,251
So what that means is that two totally 
different claims that are built around 

653
00:36:20,521 --> 00:36:25,521
totally different rules at the point 
they get around to spitting out 

654
00:36:25,521 --> 00:36:28,941
something that looks like two sexes.
It recover some of the things that we as

655
00:36:28,951 --> 00:36:31,800
human beings are familiar with from 
shakespeare,

656
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:37,100
right.
The point about male and female is so 

657
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:39,720
general that it even covers plants and 
then okay,

658
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:40,350
that's true.

659
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,970
And then we have fungi which break every
single rule.

660
00:36:45,570 --> 00:36:50,570
They don't look anything like this.
They do have stuff that we would regard 

661
00:36:50,570 --> 00:36:51,600
as different sexes,
but they can have like 50.

662
00:36:51,601 --> 00:36:54,720
I think they're even hundreds of mating 
types in some species of fungi.

663
00:36:54,721 --> 00:36:58,080
So it's not that the universe says this 
is the only way to organize a creature,

664
00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:03,500
but it does say this is the way a 
creature will be organized if certain 

665
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:05,740
things are true.
Like there's something like in something

666
00:37:05,780 --> 00:37:10,780
sperm like.
So that's very powerful when we're 

667
00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:13,611
reaching into Biology and we're saying 
male and female are patterns of behavior

668
00:37:14,311 --> 00:37:18,360
that tend to be associated with certain 
types of gametes.

669
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:21,330
When you have two gammy types,
something called nsi gummy,

670
00:37:21,690 --> 00:37:26,690
you will have two sexes and the sexes 
will follow rules that we see over and 

671
00:37:27,151 --> 00:37:29,460
over and over again.
Repeated plants,

672
00:37:29,461 --> 00:37:29,970
animals.

673
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:35,200
One of the things that we discussed in 
the green room before the show started 

674
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,530
was that what we are as some weird 
animal that can communicate in very,

675
00:37:38,951 --> 00:37:43,951
very complex ways and one of the things 
that we do when we can communicate in 

676
00:37:43,951 --> 00:37:47,921
such complex ways is explain all these 
things that we've learned about science,

677
00:37:47,961 --> 00:37:52,961
but another thing that we do is we 
distort reality to fit what we would 

678
00:37:52,961 --> 00:37:57,341
desire it to be rather than what it is.
How much of that is what's going on 

679
00:37:57,981 --> 00:37:58,310
today?

680
00:37:59,450 --> 00:38:04,450
A huge amount and unpacking that,
learning not to impose your expectations

681
00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:13,460
on nature is key to understanding it and
it really is a skill you have to learn 

682
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,360
and you know that way when nature does 
tell you something about what males and 

683
00:38:20,761 --> 00:38:25,761
females are like and you know that 
you're not talking about something that 

684
00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:29,511
you've learned by being human.
You're talking about something you've 

685
00:38:29,511 --> 00:38:32,631
learned by looking at other creatures.
Then there's a lot of power and 

686
00:38:32,631 --> 00:38:36,111
understanding what those patterns are,
especially when you get to humans 

687
00:38:36,111 --> 00:38:38,260
because of all the creatures.
I think this is fair to say,

688
00:38:38,530 --> 00:38:43,530
of all the creatures that I've spent 
anytime thinking aBout humans are maybe 

689
00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:49,420
sexually the weirdest our ducks.
Oh yeah.

690
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,140
Oh,
of ducks for the most part.

691
00:38:54,340 --> 00:38:59,340
On average on average,
but I'm human beings are partially sex 

692
00:39:01,451 --> 00:39:03,100
role reversed.
Okay.

693
00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:08,440
That's sex role reversal is not unheard 
of in an animal's that happens,

694
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,800
but our sex role reversal is so weird 
and it is not complete.

695
00:39:16,810 --> 00:39:20,590
So there's stuff going on in human 
beings that is absolutely novel.

696
00:39:20,591 --> 00:39:21,940
I mean,
in fact,

697
00:39:22,090 --> 00:39:27,090
here's a mindblowing fact that reallY 
you could start here and just follow it 

698
00:39:27,090 --> 00:39:29,380
back to the implications of this.
There are.

699
00:39:29,550 --> 00:39:31,150
How many species of mammals do you think
there are?

700
00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:38,490
Half a million?
No,

701
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:38,910
no,
no,

702
00:39:38,911 --> 00:39:39,530
no.
You're way off.

703
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:42,630
Thirty,
30,

704
00:39:42,631 --> 00:39:44,760
and then a few months there are,
uh,

705
00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:47,000
there are aBout 4,000,
5,000

706
00:39:47,010 --> 00:39:48,630
that we think really.
Well,

707
00:39:48,631 --> 00:39:50,680
I still think it's forecast.
Oh,

708
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:51,780
okay.
Well,

709
00:39:52,140 --> 00:39:54,820
this is going to mess me up because I 
don't know how to work back from $5,000.

710
00:39:54,821 --> 00:39:56,760
I don't know which played has Grown,
but yeah,

711
00:39:56,761 --> 00:40:01,761
we've got about 5,000
species of the racers are pretty 

712
00:40:01,761 --> 00:40:01,761
consistent.
Step pretty good.

713
00:40:01,761 --> 00:40:05,190
So half of them are rodents.
A quarter of them are bats.

714
00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:07,710
That one.
I studied bats in graduate school.

715
00:40:07,711 --> 00:40:09,840
That was my thing.
People never expect that.

716
00:40:09,841 --> 00:40:11,540
A quarter of all mammal species for 
bats.

717
00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:12,780
That's pretty crazy.
Anyway,

718
00:40:12,781 --> 00:40:16,140
we got that.
Never been to austin for four to 5,000

719
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,200
species of these things.
Human beings are the only one of those 

720
00:40:21,301 --> 00:40:25,170
mammal species in which breasts remain 
enlarged.

721
00:40:25,171 --> 00:40:26,220
When not lactating.

722
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,190
I find that fact absolutely remarkable.
You have.

723
00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:36,580
You have four to 5,000
species of lactating animals and in 

724
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,800
human beings,
breasts have been made persistent when 

725
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,960
not lactating.
And in sexual interactions,

726
00:40:44,961 --> 00:40:49,961
they've obviously become a signal and we
know more or less what they already 

727
00:40:50,210 --> 00:40:53,940
signal of.
They are a signal of um,

728
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:59,200
having the resources to produce a baby,
which doesn't.

729
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:00,780
It doesn't,
uh,

730
00:41:01,010 --> 00:41:04,160
registered with us as important as it.
It should.

731
00:41:04,190 --> 00:41:06,560
It's much more important to our 
ancestors.

732
00:41:06,561 --> 00:41:11,561
It was a vital characteristic because 
most of the time females were either 

733
00:41:11,561 --> 00:41:16,240
pregnant,
they were feeding a baby and therefore 

734
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:19,960
not fertile.
They were starving and therefore not 

735
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,471
fertile.
And so a fertile female who is 

736
00:41:23,471 --> 00:41:26,921
essentially advertising that she has the
resources to produce a viable offspring 

737
00:41:28,580 --> 00:41:31,850
is a,
a rare commodity.

738
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,050
I mean,
I hate to talk in those.

739
00:41:33,350 --> 00:41:35,660
I mean nothing normative by it.

740
00:41:36,020 --> 00:41:41,020
I'm just simply describing it in sort of
as if I was an alien looking down on 

741
00:41:41,020 --> 00:41:45,491
people in their evolutionary history,
but the fact that that signal finds 

742
00:41:46,551 --> 00:41:48,110
itself,
um,

743
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:53,090
utilized in the way that it does on the 
internet tells us where we are.

744
00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:58,340
We know what I'm saYing.
So one of the other things that is 

745
00:41:58,340 --> 00:42:02,321
unique about humans,
at least with regard to our most recent 

746
00:42:02,321 --> 00:42:02,321
ancestors,
the other primates,

747
00:42:02,321 --> 00:42:06,850
is that we have concealed isolation.
So you can't tell when a woman is 

748
00:42:07,970 --> 00:42:12,970
fertile.
Whereas you can tell when a baboon is 

749
00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:15,671
fertile or a monkey or a chimp.
You've got sexual swellings and other 

750
00:42:15,671 --> 00:42:17,210
indicators of fertility.
HoW do those lizards find out?

751
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,160
Because if they determine which female 
plays the stimulation role in the 

752
00:42:24,350 --> 00:42:26,330
regulation cycle,
it's probably going to be chemical.

753
00:42:26,331 --> 00:42:30,610
So some kind of smell pheromone sent 
thing vomeronasal some large.

754
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:34,340
So you see reptiles putting out their 
tongue,

755
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,950
um,
what they're doing is they're picking up

756
00:42:36,951 --> 00:42:41,951
large molecules that don't volatilize 
and then they are touching an organ that

757
00:42:42,291 --> 00:42:47,291
they have that's connected to their 
brains to detect a kind of chemical 

758
00:42:47,291 --> 00:42:50,711
signal that weirdly enough,
I don't know how true this story is 

759
00:42:50,711 --> 00:42:54,311
going to end up being probably true,
but I have a little trepidation about 

760
00:42:54,311 --> 00:42:54,311
it.
There's a,

761
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:59,320
uh,
an Oregon that detects these large 

762
00:42:59,320 --> 00:42:59,840
molecules,
the foamer no nasal Oregon,

763
00:42:59,930 --> 00:43:02,330
and it's like having another sense of 
smell that we just don't,

764
00:43:02,510 --> 00:43:05,090
we can't intuitive what it would be like
because we don't have it.

765
00:43:05,091 --> 00:43:08,630
But we actually do have remnants of the 
Oregon.

766
00:43:08,631 --> 00:43:09,850
it's just not plugged in.
Yeah.

767
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:11,600
The story is humans have it,
but it's not.

768
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:16,720
It's not connected up.
I will not be surprised if it is 

769
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:17,200
something that we're not confident of.

770
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:20,450
I won't be surprised if it turns out to 
be important in some way.

771
00:43:20,451 --> 00:43:25,451
We didn't know the tonsils or the 
appendix of turned out to have values 

772
00:43:25,451 --> 00:43:28,220
that we should have guessed,
but humans have these persistent,

773
00:43:28,430 --> 00:43:30,630
constant sexual signals in the form of 
breasts,

774
00:43:30,631 --> 00:43:35,631
among other things,
and then also have obscured when we are 

775
00:43:35,631 --> 00:43:38,450
and are not fertile and so more than any
other primates.

776
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:41,840
Humans have basically constant sexual 
availability,

777
00:43:41,841 --> 00:43:43,240
constant sexual interest,
and yes,

778
00:43:43,241 --> 00:43:45,070
there are ebbs and flows and such,
but,

779
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:49,120
but female humans more than female.
Chimps are baboons.

780
00:43:49,121 --> 00:43:54,121
Are there any other primates are 
interested in sex more reliably across 

781
00:43:54,121 --> 00:43:56,600
their ambulatory cycle than,
than any of these other primates?

782
00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:58,640
Yes.
Let's unpack that a little bit.

783
00:43:58,910 --> 00:44:01,420
So in human beings,
um,

784
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,880
ovulation is concealed so that it is not
clear when a female is fertile,

785
00:44:07,340 --> 00:44:09,650
it is concealed from the female herself.

786
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,680
Now that always gets pushed back if you 
say that in a room full of students 

787
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:14,680
because they say,
I know,

788
00:44:15,110 --> 00:44:20,110
I know,
but the truth is women do not know 

789
00:44:20,110 --> 00:44:22,811
reliably.
You can do Things like monitor 

790
00:44:22,811 --> 00:44:22,811
temperature and you can get a much 
better sense,

791
00:44:22,811 --> 00:44:24,080
but it is novel tools,
right?

792
00:44:24,081 --> 00:44:28,400
That no one had until 50 years ago.
At the most to many women feel it in our

793
00:44:28,401 --> 00:44:33,300
body that maybe,
but some who claimed to be able to,

794
00:44:33,590 --> 00:44:35,680
and there may be some self knowledge 
possible there,

795
00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:38,100
so people also claim to be able to pick 
lottery tickets.

796
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:43,990
I can pick up winning ones.
I'm not prepared to say that that never 

797
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:45,000
happens,
right?

798
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:50,030
But the interesting fact is that this,
when a woman is fertile,

799
00:44:50,610 --> 00:44:52,740
does not have to be obscure to the woman
at all.

800
00:44:53,250 --> 00:44:58,250
Evolution appears to have taken that 
piece of information away about boone 

801
00:44:58,250 --> 00:44:59,550
would know when it was fertile and it 
would alter its behavior.

802
00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:02,970
A female bevin boys when she was 
fertile.

803
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:07,280
Do you think that's because over time 
people have discerned.

804
00:45:07,310 --> 00:45:12,310
I mean over the course of evoLution,
people have discerned that having a 

805
00:45:12,310 --> 00:45:16,301
child also is partially a burden and so 
maybe more intelligent creatures as 

806
00:45:19,701 --> 00:45:21,650
humans got more and more intelligent.
They said,

807
00:45:21,651 --> 00:45:26,651
wow,
it seems like a little inconvenient to 

808
00:45:26,651 --> 00:45:28,571
have a child or as a baboon would not 
think that way and not contemplate the 

809
00:45:28,581 --> 00:45:33,581
future.
So there was some sort of evolutionary 

810
00:45:33,581 --> 00:45:36,071
advantage for it to be concealed and 
humans and for outright displays of 

811
00:45:36,261 --> 00:45:40,100
sexuality to be prominent throughout 
their entire life.

812
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,580
I suspect the answer is a whole lot more
horrible than that really.

813
00:45:44,650 --> 00:45:45,770
I suspect.
Yeah,

814
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:47,120
absolutely.
Horrible.

815
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:52,270
Which is that to the extent that a woman
knows when she is fertile,

816
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:55,730
she actually may be

817
00:45:55,890 --> 00:45:58,980
vulnerable.
In other words,

818
00:45:59,130 --> 00:46:02,160
to the extent that sexual too coercive 
sex.

819
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:04,410
Yeah.
So vulnerable to rape.

820
00:46:04,830 --> 00:46:08,970
So that if a woman was outright 
signaling that she was obviating the,

821
00:46:08,971 --> 00:46:12,150
she would be more likely to be raped by 
other humans.

822
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:14,670
Oh,
I think there's no question about that.

823
00:46:15,070 --> 00:46:16,500
Um,
so

824
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,240
in,
in a sense,

825
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,320
hiding this information from everybody 
appears to be an evolutionary solution 

826
00:46:24,571 --> 00:46:29,571
to a problem.
I don't think we can name it exactly 

827
00:46:29,571 --> 00:46:31,140
because so much is obscure about our 
recent ancestors.

828
00:46:31,141 --> 00:46:33,510
You know,
we only have bones,

829
00:46:33,810 --> 00:46:38,810
nothing else fossilizes.
and that doesn't mean that the behavior 

830
00:46:38,810 --> 00:46:38,810
doesn't fossilized.
So there's a lot we can't say,

831
00:46:39,180 --> 00:46:41,550
but it is interesting arriving at the 
present,

832
00:46:41,551 --> 00:46:46,350
we have modern women and we can say it 
is interesting that evolution has robbed

833
00:46:46,351 --> 00:46:51,351
women themselves,
have a piece of information that one 

834
00:46:51,351 --> 00:46:51,870
would initially think would be so 
valuable

835
00:46:52,350 --> 00:46:54,480
that it would be prominent

836
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,640
to be obscure at all is fascinating.
So the other thing that heather 

837
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,421
mentioned,
which I think belongs front and center 

838
00:47:04,421 --> 00:47:06,431
in this conversation,
is having sex for Pleasure rather than 

839
00:47:08,151 --> 00:47:11,540
reproductive purposes.
So we're not the only ones to do that.

840
00:47:11,650 --> 00:47:14,060
There was dolphins,
others.

841
00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:15,560
There are a few,
but it's rare.

842
00:47:15,620 --> 00:47:20,620
It's very rare.
There are a few other species that 

843
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:20,690
appeared to do this and they don't 
appear to do it.

844
00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:24,560
The way humans done at is a dolphin 
example.

845
00:47:24,561 --> 00:47:27,170
Is it year round?
Do you know?

846
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:28,850
I don't remember.
So anyway,

847
00:47:28,851 --> 00:47:33,851
the that sex in human beings has taken 
on these other important roles in pair 

848
00:47:35,921 --> 00:47:37,540
bonding,
for example,

849
00:47:38,530 --> 00:47:43,530
is very special and the fact that it 
continues after menopause.

850
00:47:43,661 --> 00:47:46,330
I mean menopause itself is special 
menopause.

851
00:47:46,331 --> 00:47:51,331
The idea that that's not your 
reproductive apparatus failing due to 

852
00:47:51,491 --> 00:47:53,530
age,
that is your reproductive apparatus.

853
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,920
Deciding to shut down because you've 
moved into a new phase.

854
00:47:57,550 --> 00:48:02,550
Basically you've moved into the grandma 
phase and the grandma phases essential 

855
00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:06,340
in humans where it is not essential in 
almost any other creature.

856
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,830
I think elephants occasionally and 
orcas,

857
00:48:09,070 --> 00:48:11,350
I believe orc has also have that 
pattern,

858
00:48:11,860 --> 00:48:13,330
but um,
but anyway,

859
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,690
all of these things are so different 
about humans and they have so much to do

860
00:48:16,691 --> 00:48:21,691
with sex that having a mind numbing 
conversation about sexual signals in 

861
00:48:22,841 --> 00:48:27,841
modern times is,
it's actually just kind of painful to 

862
00:48:27,841 --> 00:48:30,790
listen to it because you want all of 
these pieces of information on the table

863
00:48:30,791 --> 00:48:32,810
so that at the point we get to the 
discussion about what,

864
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,770
what do we do about modernity that we're
not,

865
00:48:35,860 --> 00:48:37,900
you know,
playing with toys.

866
00:48:37,901 --> 00:48:39,970
We're actually talking about the real 
stuff.

867
00:48:43,150 --> 00:48:48,150
This modernity.
I mean the way human beings represent 

868
00:48:48,731 --> 00:48:51,130
sexuality or the way sexuality is 
represented.

869
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:53,200
Um,
what's wrong with it?

870
00:48:53,350 --> 00:48:54,490
Like what,
what are the,

871
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:57,760
what are the key things that stand out 
as an evolutionary biologist?

872
00:48:58,090 --> 00:49:00,580
Um,
well let me try an experiment with you.

873
00:49:00,581 --> 00:49:01,600
This,
this is a.

874
00:49:02,290 --> 00:49:03,580
I'm concerned.
This isn't gonna work,

875
00:49:03,581 --> 00:49:04,630
but I hope,
I hope it does.

876
00:49:04,750 --> 00:49:05,860
Even if it doesn't work,
go to work.

877
00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:07,050
Um,
I,

878
00:49:07,060 --> 00:49:09,790
w I would like to try and experiment 
with you as a,

879
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,440
a red blooded male.
Okay.

880
00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:18,150
I would like you to conjure the image in
your mind of a woman who is not 

881
00:49:20,591 --> 00:49:21,940
beautiful,
but it's hot.

882
00:49:23,940 --> 00:49:25,130
Hmm.
Okay.

883
00:49:25,420 --> 00:49:26,290
Can you do it?
Sure.

884
00:49:26,610 --> 00:49:29,800
Okay.
Can you conjure the image of a woman who

885
00:49:30,190 --> 00:49:33,190
is beautiful but not hot?
Yes.

886
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:34,990
No Problem.
No problem.

887
00:49:35,110 --> 00:49:37,110
Me either.
Um,

888
00:49:37,420 --> 00:49:42,420
this I think actually is a window into 
much that is wrong with what we think 

889
00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:44,260
about human sexuality.

890
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,880
I think most people,
if you ask them without doing that 

891
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,451
little experiment to conjure a or to 
define what,

892
00:49:55,450 --> 00:50:00,450
what it is for somebody to be hot,
you would get answers and people would 

893
00:50:00,450 --> 00:50:02,890
tell you that hot was sort of like the 
height of beauty,

894
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:06,070
right?
Which is very frightening if that's true

895
00:50:06,071 --> 00:50:10,510
because hotness wanes with age.
It deteriorates.

896
00:50:10,730 --> 00:50:13,720
Just can't help it.
The discovery,

897
00:50:13,721 --> 00:50:18,721
that beauty actually is a different 
parameter tells a whole different story 

898
00:50:18,821 --> 00:50:23,821
about what's going on with us.
People with men and with women,

899
00:50:24,550 --> 00:50:29,550
and I think both men and women are 
confused by I'm so if it is true,

900
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:35,470
and I mean I know it is true,
I can look inside my own mind and I can 

901
00:50:35,470 --> 00:50:38,651
say that at least for some men it is 
true that beauty and hotness are almost 

902
00:50:38,651 --> 00:50:40,670
uncorrelated.
There are people who have both traits,

903
00:50:40,850 --> 00:50:42,850
but I,
uh,

904
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:48,400
I have no trouble seeing that image of a
woman who is hot but not the least bit 

905
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:48,400
beautiful.

906
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,170
And I know lots of women who are 
beautiful and not hot.

907
00:50:51,230 --> 00:50:56,230
And I also,
if I take the category of women who are 

908
00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:58,370
beautiful but not hot,
um,

909
00:50:59,810 --> 00:51:02,410
there are a lot of older women in it,
right?

910
00:51:02,420 --> 00:51:07,420
I know women in their sixties and 
seventies who have Poise have aged 

911
00:51:08,540 --> 00:51:11,000
gracefully.
They're gray as can be.

912
00:51:11,090 --> 00:51:14,060
They may be wrinkled,
but if you talk to them,

913
00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:16,880
one does have the sense I'm talking to a
beautiful person,

914
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:17,930
right?
And I'm not,

915
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:22,990
I'm not being modeled in here.
If it was just a simple fact that both 

916
00:51:22,990 --> 00:51:24,560
beauty and hotness wane with age,
I would say so.

917
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:28,280
But it is not the case.
So what's going on?

918
00:51:28,281 --> 00:51:31,250
Why do we have these two categories and 
why do we assume,

919
00:51:31,310 --> 00:51:36,310
I mean if you look at advertising,
you will get the message that hotness is

920
00:51:37,581 --> 00:51:39,290
where it's at,
right?

921
00:51:39,950 --> 00:51:42,350
Hotness is the thing that's the only 
standard possible.

922
00:51:42,740 --> 00:51:47,180
It's the only standard.
And so women are aspiring to it and then

923
00:51:47,181 --> 00:51:49,610
they're fighting it as it wanes.
And all of this,

924
00:51:49,611 --> 00:51:54,611
and I'm here,
here's what I suspect is up because 

925
00:51:54,771 --> 00:51:57,260
males are males,
they have,

926
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:01,250
I want to say they have to reproductive 
strategies really.

927
00:52:01,251 --> 00:52:06,251
They have three reproductive strategies 
and one of them is a so awful that it's 

928
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,770
really just unpleasant even entered into
the discussion,

929
00:52:09,830 --> 00:52:11,600
but new tournament,
right?

930
00:52:11,780 --> 00:52:13,080
Yep.
Yeah.

931
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,770
So the first reproductive strategy that 
men have,

932
00:52:15,771 --> 00:52:18,860
the one that would generally have 
succeeded and that by the way,

933
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,210
we can talk about monogamy versus 
polyamory and all of that at some point.

934
00:52:23,211 --> 00:52:24,030
But,
uh,

935
00:52:24,170 --> 00:52:26,570
I'm not saying anything that is 
inherent,

936
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:31,870
it's not Inherently about monogamy.
The way males have typically reproduced 

937
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:36,880
is they have invested in their offspring
and the mothers of their offspring.

938
00:52:37,850 --> 00:52:41,150
That's the goto mechanism for 
reproducing as a human.

939
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,480
Why?
Because human babies are so needy that 

940
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,631
one person trying to raise them on their
own is hobbled by just the sheer 

941
00:52:50,121 --> 00:52:54,680
difficulty of trying to manage an infant
and a toddler while trying to accomplish

942
00:52:54,681 --> 00:52:59,681
the other things of being a person.
So let me just add here that the idea 

943
00:52:59,681 --> 00:53:03,491
that monogamy has been ubiquitous 
throughout human history is not 

944
00:53:03,491 --> 00:53:07,240
completely accepted,
but that there is good evidence for it 

945
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:10,690
and a lot of fronts and one of the 
points against it is that we remain 

946
00:53:10,690 --> 00:53:12,650
somewhat sexually dimorphic.
That men are on average,

947
00:53:12,651 --> 00:53:14,600
a bit taller,
a bit more muscular,

948
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:16,110
much more muscular,
um,

949
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:21,670
but that we are so much less sexually 
dimorphic than even our ancestors beef,

950
00:53:23,490 --> 00:53:26,670
you know,
in more times then when we were,

951
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:31,740
she didn't read most recent common 
assets with chimps that we are moving 

952
00:53:31,740 --> 00:53:33,590
towards a more monogamous situation.
So just,

953
00:53:33,650 --> 00:53:35,700
I think you said something that was 
unclear at the beginning.

954
00:53:36,180 --> 00:53:41,180
There has been a lot of polygyny where 
one male has multiple females in human 

955
00:53:41,180 --> 00:53:45,951
history.
Probably the majority of human cultures 

956
00:53:45,951 --> 00:53:45,951
have been polygynous.
Yes.

957
00:53:45,951 --> 00:53:50,560
Majority of people on earth today belong
to cultures that are at least nominally 

958
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,410
monogamous,
and we should talk about what that shift

959
00:53:52,411 --> 00:53:55,380
is and what it means to us and what's 
desirable and all of that.

960
00:53:55,381 --> 00:54:00,381
But the basic point that human babies 
are so expensive and difficult to raise 

961
00:54:02,580 --> 00:54:05,910
that you need a team to do it.
And you know,

962
00:54:05,911 --> 00:54:10,911
in part this is a chicken and egg 
question is not a good term because it's

963
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,130
quite clear which came first.
But um,

964
00:54:13,470 --> 00:54:16,380
the,
this is a situation where the,

965
00:54:16,530 --> 00:54:21,530
when you have a team,
you can also afford to have a baby 

966
00:54:21,530 --> 00:54:22,110
that's more needy and there is nothing 
good about a needy baby,

967
00:54:22,170 --> 00:54:24,570
but there is something good about what 
you can get.

968
00:54:24,630 --> 00:54:29,630
If you can tolerate a needy baby,
you can get a baby that's a lot more 

969
00:54:29,630 --> 00:54:33,381
nuanced when it grows up.
So males have traditionally invested in 

970
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:36,270
offspring,
um,

971
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,200
but a male who is investing in their 
offspring,

972
00:54:41,130 --> 00:54:46,130
should they happen on an opportunity in 
which a female who is fertile and 

973
00:54:46,130 --> 00:54:50,301
capable of producing an offspring does 
not require commitment from them in 

974
00:54:50,301 --> 00:54:51,330
order to have sex.
That's an evolutionary bargain.

975
00:54:52,290 --> 00:54:57,290
A male who can either convince a female 
or finds a female who's willing to 

976
00:54:57,290 --> 00:55:00,150
produce a baby,
but not expect any support in return.

977
00:55:00,510 --> 00:55:05,510
That such a power.
It's like winning the lottery 

978
00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:07,791
evolutionarily.
So it would have almost never happened 

979
00:55:07,791 --> 00:55:09,150
in history because women,
because babies are so expensive,

980
00:55:09,180 --> 00:55:14,180
are wired to avoid like the plague.
You don't want to get stuck raising a 

981
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:17,991
baby on your own if you could,
through committing to somebody get a 

982
00:55:17,991 --> 00:55:19,620
partner in raising an offspring.

983
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,590
So how does birth control factor into 
that?

984
00:55:21,630 --> 00:55:23,070
Well,
we'll get there in a second,

985
00:55:23,071 --> 00:55:25,410
but let's just get the two strategies on
the table.

986
00:55:25,590 --> 00:55:30,590
Males in general have succeeded 
reproductively by investing in their 

987
00:55:32,011 --> 00:55:34,200
offspring and their offsprings.
Mothers,

988
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,550
when they have the opportunity to 
produce offspring with no commitment,

989
00:55:38,730 --> 00:55:43,730
they have a hard time resisting that 
opportunity because it's such an 

990
00:55:43,730 --> 00:55:44,250
evolutionary when.
But that doesn't mean it would have been

991
00:55:44,251 --> 00:55:46,800
very common in history because females 
would avoid it.

992
00:55:47,370 --> 00:55:51,330
So my art can't look away from hot is 
about that second strategy,

993
00:55:51,620 --> 00:55:56,620
right?
So hot is this channel that men can 

994
00:55:57,990 --> 00:56:02,990
they.
They are wired in such a way that they 

995
00:56:02,990 --> 00:56:03,810
actually had been robbed of every useful
term.

996
00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:09,110
They are triggered by the sight of a 
woman who is broadcasting hotness.

997
00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:12,510
Right?
And um,

998
00:56:13,140 --> 00:56:14,930
so anyway,
the,

999
00:56:16,180 --> 00:56:21,180
the thing that I think is most important
about this is we now live in a culture 

1000
00:56:21,180 --> 00:56:25,191
where we have advertisers essentially 
creating a kind of insecurity because 

1001
00:56:27,311 --> 00:56:30,190
insecurity causes people to spend money 
they otherwise wouldn't.

1002
00:56:30,730 --> 00:56:35,730
That insecurity has women trying to 
capture male attention by broadcasting 

1003
00:56:36,461 --> 00:56:39,190
hotness,
which of course works because men have a

1004
00:56:39,191 --> 00:56:44,191
hard time ignoring hotness,
but what I think women often don't 

1005
00:56:44,191 --> 00:56:48,511
understand is that getting a man's 
attention by broadcasting hotness has 

1006
00:56:49,421 --> 00:56:53,560
him in the frame of mind of this second 
reproductive strategy and it is actually

1007
00:56:53,561 --> 00:56:58,561
counterproductive to getting his 
attention for the first reproductive 

1008
00:56:58,561 --> 00:57:02,011
strategy because men have historically.
This is by the way,

1009
00:57:03,701 --> 00:57:08,701
this is where I'm going to get in huge 
trouble with people because this is 

1010
00:57:08,701 --> 00:57:08,701
going to sound like an accusation.
Really.

1011
00:57:08,701 --> 00:57:13,261
I'm just trying to describe what has 
been and then we can talk about what we 

1012
00:57:13,261 --> 00:57:16,681
should do about it,
but I'm a woman who values herself 

1013
00:57:18,610 --> 00:57:22,780
highly in reproductive terms,
will not leap on,

1014
00:57:23,050 --> 00:57:28,050
uh,
a sexual opportunity just because it's 

1015
00:57:28,050 --> 00:57:28,570
available because what's at stake is so 
great.

1016
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,600
Historically for women,
this is not true anymore because of 

1017
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,600
birth control,
but historically it would be true that a

1018
00:57:34,601 --> 00:57:39,601
sexual interaction is basically baby 
roulette and baby roulette is a 

1019
00:57:39,941 --> 00:57:41,320
dangerous game to play.

1020
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:46,320
So we get at some of what's true 
underneath the stereotype of the madonna

1021
00:57:48,191 --> 00:57:53,191
whore dichotomy that neither of those 
words is quite right because no one 

1022
00:57:55,481 --> 00:57:58,210
wants a madonna and elements of virgin 
is a life partner,

1023
00:57:58,420 --> 00:58:03,420
right?
You want to have a vibrant sexual 

1024
00:58:03,420 --> 00:58:03,580
relationship with your life partner,
but the,

1025
00:58:03,790 --> 00:58:08,790
are you triggering the hotness?
Can I get a baby out of you and never 

1026
00:58:08,801 --> 00:58:12,190
see it?
I'm a strategy and men,

1027
00:58:12,390 --> 00:58:14,740
or are you triggering the,
oh my god,

1028
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,400
you're gorgeous and I feel like we could
do this together.

1029
00:58:18,660 --> 00:58:23,660
I hate to interrupt you,
but you got to pull this thing close to 

1030
00:58:23,660 --> 00:58:23,660
them.
Sorry,

1031
00:58:23,660 --> 00:58:23,660
just just move that sucker around.
So it's,

1032
00:58:23,660 --> 00:58:24,450
so it's comfortable where you're 
sitting.

1033
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,070
How about that?
It's very different.

1034
00:58:26,071 --> 00:58:28,890
It sounds okay in our ears,
but it's very different as the audio.

1035
00:58:29,790 --> 00:58:31,500
Sorry.
Perfect.

1036
00:58:31,530 --> 00:58:31,780
Now.
Good.

1037
00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:32,280
So,
um,

1038
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,510
so,
so anyway,

1039
00:58:33,511 --> 00:58:34,980
the,
the madonna whore complex,

1040
00:58:34,981 --> 00:58:39,981
which is this famous thing isn't the 
paradox that we are led to believe men 

1041
00:58:40,890 --> 00:58:43,010
are interested in,
you know,

1042
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,110
as heather points out,
madonna and whore or the wrong terms,

1043
00:58:46,111 --> 00:58:51,111
they're very charged,
but men are interested in both of these 

1044
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,510
reproductive strategies but they are not
interested.

1045
00:58:54,510 --> 00:58:58,410
They're not paradoxically searching for 
them in the same individual will.

1046
00:58:58,411 --> 00:59:02,550
Isn't there an issue also that today 
human beings,

1047
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:07,640
males in particular are not looking at 
women purely in terms of someone to 

1048
00:59:07,831 --> 00:59:12,831
reproduce with.
They're looking in terms of what is 

1049
00:59:12,831 --> 00:59:15,411
sexually pleasurable,
what did they find attractive and when 

1050
00:59:15,411 --> 00:59:17,640
they see a person,
it is almost,

1051
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:20,520
it's very rare that they look at a woman
and say,

1052
00:59:20,521 --> 00:59:22,100
this is a who I would

1053
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:24,320
like to breed with.
They'd say,

1054
00:59:24,321 --> 00:59:26,060
I would like to practice reading with 
her,

1055
00:59:26,580 --> 00:59:31,580
but,
but here's where our language gets in 

1056
00:59:31,580 --> 00:59:31,580
the way,
right?

1057
00:59:31,580 --> 00:59:31,880
Like we were telling ourselves stories 
based on,

1058
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:36,650
I mean got birth control changed 
everything actually and really so new.

1059
00:59:36,651 --> 00:59:38,120
Exactly right.
It's so new.

1060
00:59:38,121 --> 00:59:43,121
I mean there's,
there are not very reliable forms of 

1061
00:59:43,121 --> 00:59:43,190
birth control and lots of cultures 
around the world,

1062
00:59:43,220 --> 00:59:47,690
but actually fully reliable birth 
control is decades old,

1063
00:59:48,380 --> 00:59:53,380
so we shouldn't expect the stories we 
tell ourselves about what we're looking 

1064
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:57,041
for to be a match for what we're 
actually looking for yet because we 

1065
00:59:57,041 --> 01:00:00,881
just.
We haven't had time to update our 

1066
01:00:00,881 --> 01:00:03,580
software even ride,
so the software is still wired the same 

1067
01:00:03,580 --> 01:00:08,561
way to look at a woman who you believe 
would be a good carrier of babies,

1068
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,590
someone who would be very maternal,
someone who's attractive,

1069
01:00:15,591 --> 01:00:16,580
they have good features.

1070
01:00:16,580 --> 01:00:18,380
This would be someone who you'd want to 
breed with.

1071
01:00:18,620 --> 01:00:23,620
Whereas the second option would be 
someone who you could sneak it in on.

1072
01:00:24,260 --> 01:00:25,850
I would say with regard to the first 
strategy,

1073
01:00:25,851 --> 01:00:27,050
it's,
it's more than that.

1074
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,750
More so that the first strategy as you 
just described,

1075
01:00:29,751 --> 01:00:33,620
it sounds very traditional female role.
Right?

1076
01:00:33,710 --> 01:00:38,710
And mostly,
especially when populations are moving 

1077
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:42,701
across frontiers and actually like 
expanding the scope of where humans 

1078
01:00:42,701 --> 01:00:43,520
were,
what you needed in a partner,

1079
01:00:43,550 --> 01:00:48,550
both male and female with someone with 
whom you could share all of life's 

1080
01:00:48,550 --> 01:00:48,550
challenges,
right?

1081
01:00:48,550 --> 01:00:49,970
It wasn't just about taking care of 
baby,

1082
01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:50,990
uh,
because you know,

1083
01:00:50,991 --> 01:00:54,620
dad was a also doing parental care,
but uh,

1084
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:59,680
mothers and fathers were in it together 
and it was their division of labor of 

1085
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:00,200
course.
And was the specialization of course,

1086
01:01:00,350 --> 01:01:02,330
that that specialization always look the
same?

1087
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:03,410
No,
it didn't.

1088
01:01:03,411 --> 01:01:05,570
In fact cross culturally,
this is fascinating,

1089
01:01:05,571 --> 01:01:08,330
like some tasks and up highly gendered 
across cultures.

1090
01:01:08,330 --> 01:01:10,220
But which gender does it,
is different,

1091
01:01:10,221 --> 01:01:15,221
like weaving turns out to be a pretty 
highly gendered task and different 

1092
01:01:15,221 --> 01:01:18,641
cultures.
But sometimes it's only women who do it 

1093
01:01:18,641 --> 01:01:18,641
and sometimes it's only men.
And you know,

1094
01:01:18,641 --> 01:01:22,220
there are some things that really only 
men do in most cultures.

1095
01:01:22,221 --> 01:01:24,260
And this is,
this is a great review,

1096
01:01:24,570 --> 01:01:26,660
an anthropology paper from the early 
seventies.

1097
01:01:26,661 --> 01:01:29,060
So this is mostly preindustrial cultures
they're looking at.

1098
01:01:29,061 --> 01:01:33,500
But the jobs that across cultures where 
it happens,

1099
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,390
only men do include the hunting of large
marine mammals,

1100
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,390
an iron smelting.
Those two things,

1101
01:01:41,420 --> 01:01:42,830
those two.
Then there's a few others,

1102
01:01:42,831 --> 01:01:43,730
but those are the top,

1103
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:48,800
the largest marine mammals.
But at the same time it's whale hunting 

1104
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,580
and smelting of ors.
Wow.

1105
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:51,520
Yeah,
definitely don't do that.

1106
01:01:52,430 --> 01:01:57,430
It doesn't burn a hole in your boat.
You keep quenching the thing by 

1107
01:01:57,430 --> 01:01:57,430
accident.
And um,

1108
01:01:57,810 --> 01:02:00,180
yeah.
So I think you know,

1109
01:02:00,450 --> 01:02:05,450
the answer to the question you asked is 
that the whole system has been hijacked 

1110
01:02:05,450 --> 01:02:09,510
by the novelty of our current 
circumstances.

1111
01:02:09,511 --> 01:02:14,511
And what I was trying to get at before 
is that the size of the wind of an 

1112
01:02:16,861 --> 01:02:21,861
ancestral male who reproduced with a 
that didn't require investment from 

1113
01:02:21,861 --> 01:02:23,460
them.
The size of that,

1114
01:02:23,461 --> 01:02:28,461
when is so great that it causes men to 
default to thinking about that when it 

1115
01:02:30,661 --> 01:02:35,661
appears to be available.
And so in a world where there's birth 

1116
01:02:35,661 --> 01:02:39,051
control and therefore the stakes for 
women for having sex had been greatly 

1117
01:02:39,051 --> 01:02:43,461
reduced and therefore more women are 
interested in having sex without 

1118
01:02:43,461 --> 01:02:43,461
commitment.

1119
01:02:43,461 --> 01:02:48,290
The problem is men don't really know 
what they're looking for because there 

1120
01:02:48,290 --> 01:02:49,140
is this,
uh,

1121
01:02:49,980 --> 01:02:54,000
this level of triggering that they 
cannot overcome.

1122
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:58,740
And so the other point I want to make on
this front is yes,

1123
01:02:58,741 --> 01:03:03,741
men are interested in sexual pleasure as
our women men and women are overlapping 

1124
01:03:05,101 --> 01:03:10,101
but distinct in what that means.
But I think if we were to say,

1125
01:03:11,340 --> 01:03:16,340
hey,
sexual pleasure is awesome and you 

1126
01:03:16,340 --> 01:03:20,331
should live your life so as to maybe not
maximize it,

1127
01:03:20,371 --> 01:03:23,180
but come close to maximizing it,
that sexual pleasure,

1128
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:28,200
so desirable that you should live your 
life in a way that you get as much of 

1129
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,611
that thing as you can.
That would not necessarily say that the 

1130
01:03:31,611 --> 01:03:32,820
way to do it was to go around banging 
strangers,

1131
01:03:33,450 --> 01:03:36,690
right?
Because this is a multifaceted,

1132
01:03:37,050 --> 01:03:42,050
a phenomenon and there is one thing that
gets left out of this discussion almost 

1133
01:03:43,741 --> 01:03:48,450
every time I hear people talk about it,
which is that the sex that one has,

1134
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,210
when the stakes are really high,
right?

1135
01:03:51,210 --> 01:03:56,210
When you're really into somebody that's,
that's a very pleasurable kind of sex 

1136
01:03:57,301 --> 01:04:00,720
that is not reproduced by low stakes 
situation.

1137
01:04:00,721 --> 01:04:04,470
And so we're comparing things and it 
sounds like,

1138
01:04:04,471 --> 01:04:09,471
well,
sexual pleasure is what you're after 

1139
01:04:09,471 --> 01:04:09,471
then more sex is certainly the way to 
get there.

1140
01:04:09,471 --> 01:04:11,050
But you know,
um,

1141
01:04:11,150 --> 01:04:14,580
it tends to look like the argument tends
to be more sex with more people,

1142
01:04:14,670 --> 01:04:19,140
more varied sex partners is the obvious 
way to optimize sexual pleasure.

1143
01:04:20,340 --> 01:04:25,340
And actually that assumption hasn't been
investigated and wasn't a difficult to 

1144
01:04:25,340 --> 01:04:26,820
accomplish.
What is that,

1145
01:04:26,821 --> 01:04:29,220
why it's not,
it hasn't really been investigated.

1146
01:04:29,221 --> 01:04:34,221
I mean how many people are having sex 
with multiple partners and take notes 

1147
01:04:34,221 --> 01:04:35,130
and being studied.
Well I don't know.

1148
01:04:35,131 --> 01:04:36,840
I mean college students,
you know,

1149
01:04:37,140 --> 01:04:38,940
right.
But tell you anything for 50 bucks.

1150
01:04:38,941 --> 01:04:43,941
So there are lots of these studies that 
do involve asking a lot of college 

1151
01:04:43,941 --> 01:04:43,941
students,
which is not,

1152
01:04:43,941 --> 01:04:45,060
you know,
it's not a very broad sample but,

1153
01:04:45,210 --> 01:04:50,210
but again,
this is a fairly new phenomenon of the 

1154
01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:52,011
last five,
six decades where you could do it and 

1155
01:04:52,011 --> 01:04:52,011
not worry about reproducing.

1156
01:04:52,350 --> 01:04:57,350
Well,
so the question really is if we step 

1157
01:04:57,350 --> 01:04:59,500
back from our own lives and we say,
what,

1158
01:04:59,850 --> 01:05:04,850
what would the rules be if I wanted to 
maximize this set of things,

1159
01:05:06,091 --> 01:05:08,820
if I wanted to get these values out of 
my life,

1160
01:05:08,821 --> 01:05:11,440
how would I alter my behavior?
Um,

1161
01:05:12,090 --> 01:05:14,580
I don't think you would come up with,
hey,

1162
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,560
sex with strangers is the answer to all 
of this.

1163
01:05:17,620 --> 01:05:19,810
In fact,
I think sex with strangers is,

1164
01:05:20,230 --> 01:05:25,230
um,
it's pretty low grade in terms of what 

1165
01:05:25,230 --> 01:05:25,800
it delivers.
So,

1166
01:05:26,180 --> 01:05:31,180
so there are some cultures that 
encourage a lot of early fooling around 

1167
01:05:31,780 --> 01:05:36,780
between,
between individuals and it's considered 

1168
01:05:36,780 --> 01:05:41,281
low stakes and it stops at some point.
And that's one thing that what's going 

1169
01:05:41,281 --> 01:05:45,070
on in modern american culture is there's
no end point.

1170
01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:47,430
It's just considered a good,
uh,

1171
01:05:47,500 --> 01:05:52,500
that more sex with more strangers is 
inherently going to result in more 

1172
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:52,500
pleasure.
And therefore,

1173
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:53,980
if we're actually interested in sexual 
pleasure,

1174
01:05:53,981 --> 01:05:55,630
that's what we should be doing.
And if you,

1175
01:05:55,631 --> 01:06:00,190
if you look at cultures that have taken 
sexual pleasure seriously,

1176
01:06:00,191 --> 01:06:02,350
if you look at like a tantric sex,
right?

1177
01:06:02,980 --> 01:06:07,980
It isn't about sex with strangers,
it's about cultivating a sexual 

1178
01:06:07,980 --> 01:06:12,961
relationship that increases sexual 
pleasure to an extreme height that you 

1179
01:06:12,961 --> 01:06:16,330
won't reach if you aren't careful in 
architecting it.

1180
01:06:16,331 --> 01:06:18,310
so in other words,
it's about delayed gratification.

1181
01:06:18,311 --> 01:06:21,640
I mean,
really that's the missing a idea here is

1182
01:06:21,641 --> 01:06:25,570
that delayed gratification is actually a
strong contributor to sexual pleasure.

1183
01:06:26,140 --> 01:06:31,140
Isn't this sex with strangers thing 
attractive because it's difficult to 

1184
01:06:31,140 --> 01:06:33,190
accomplish?
Is that part of it?

1185
01:06:33,610 --> 01:06:36,580
well,
I said it's not accomplished for men,

1186
01:06:36,581 --> 01:06:38,650
but not very difficult to accomplish for
women rights.

1187
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:43,710
It does not that attractive to women,
not nearly as attractive to women as it 

1188
01:06:43,710 --> 01:06:47,170
is to men for the simple reason that it 
should be attractive to us in the city.

1189
01:06:47,980 --> 01:06:48,870
Very much so.
Yeah.

1190
01:06:48,930 --> 01:06:53,170
And it's because it's imagined that 
symmetry is equality.

1191
01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:54,170
Okay.
Right.

1192
01:06:54,180 --> 01:06:55,270
And that's.
And that's,

1193
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:55,970
I mean,
I think that's

1194
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,580
maybe one of the main things we're 
pushing back against here is that we are

1195
01:06:59,581 --> 01:07:03,270
not making the claim that one sex is 
better than the other,

1196
01:07:03,330 --> 01:07:06,540
but the idea that we are identical is 
absurd on its face.

1197
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:08,420
Well,
in our culTure today,

1198
01:07:08,510 --> 01:07:13,510
one of the things that is a big standout
as being very novel is social media.

1199
01:07:14,210 --> 01:07:19,210
This is a completely new thing and this 
social media also being used to attract 

1200
01:07:19,971 --> 01:07:22,550
sex partners is a very new thing.
Man.

1201
01:07:22,610 --> 01:07:24,720
I had a whole bit in my last act,
uh,

1202
01:07:24,820 --> 01:07:29,820
my,
my last netflix special about some girl 

1203
01:07:29,820 --> 01:07:33,040
who lives in Florida who has not,
she probably have 9 billion people on 

1204
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:37,171
our instagram now.
She had 9 million followers and all she 

1205
01:07:37,171 --> 01:07:41,501
does is take pictures of her ass.
And I was saying science needs to study 

1206
01:07:41,501 --> 01:07:43,370
her [inaudible].
This is a new type of human being.

1207
01:07:43,580 --> 01:07:46,100
We don't know anything about her.
What she,

1208
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,860
she has nothing to do with what she 
says.

1209
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,800
It has nothing to do with what she's 
accomplished in life.

1210
01:07:51,980 --> 01:07:56,570
It literally is about people focusing on
her ass so fast.

1211
01:07:56,580 --> 01:07:58,700
Why is she doing it?
There's a tension,

1212
01:07:59,030 --> 01:08:04,030
but she's getting attention.
I'm sure there's an economic benefit to 

1213
01:08:04,030 --> 01:08:04,030
it too,
but that came later.

1214
01:08:04,030 --> 01:08:08,650
The attention came first.
She didn't embark on this journey like 

1215
01:08:08,650 --> 01:08:08,720
going,
I know what I'll do.

1216
01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:11,030
I'm going to figure out how to make 
money off my ass.

1217
01:08:11,180 --> 01:08:16,020
She decided she comes of age and 
discovers that that's asset when

1218
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:18,900
you want it to be or not,
but now I'm being a little bit,

1219
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:22,580
how am I going to play it?
But some number of people play it.

1220
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:23,510
Well,
um,

1221
01:08:23,540 --> 01:08:24,420
but.
But again,

1222
01:08:24,421 --> 01:08:29,200
I.
So there is what I would call it two way

1223
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:33,480
failure of empathy.
So you'll give me a little,

1224
01:08:33,510 --> 01:08:38,510
a little leash here.
We empathize with another individual by 

1225
01:08:39,610 --> 01:08:44,610
using our own minds and whatever it is 
that we have as the content of our 

1226
01:08:44,610 --> 01:08:49,051
minds.
And then we run the data of somebody 

1227
01:08:49,051 --> 01:08:49,051
else's situation through our minds and 
we say,

1228
01:08:49,051 --> 01:08:50,920
how would I feel in that situation?
And in general,

1229
01:08:51,190 --> 01:08:56,190
this works really well if you share 
circuitry with somebody and it works not

1230
01:08:56,321 --> 01:08:58,090
so well where your circuitry is 
different.

1231
01:08:58,150 --> 01:09:03,150
So there are lots of places where males 
and females who grew up,

1232
01:09:03,611 --> 01:09:08,611
heather and I both grew up in la.
There's a certain amount of stuff that 

1233
01:09:08,611 --> 01:09:12,840
we can intuit about,
what the other would think about 

1234
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,781
something just based on the fact that we
grew up in the same period in the same 

1235
01:09:15,781 --> 01:09:15,781
place,
um,

1236
01:09:15,781 --> 01:09:20,100
but males and females there,
there's a place where we top out and we 

1237
01:09:20,100 --> 01:09:24,541
can't understand what the other is,
is experiencing because it is very 

1238
01:09:24,790 --> 01:09:26,200
unlike what we would experience.

1239
01:09:26,230 --> 01:09:28,210
So for example,
if,

1240
01:09:28,211 --> 01:09:30,160
uh,
if you were walking down the street,

1241
01:09:30,161 --> 01:09:32,560
let's say before you were a well known 
guy,

1242
01:09:32,980 --> 01:09:35,860
okay,
you're an anonymous guy walking down the

1243
01:09:35,861 --> 01:09:40,780
street and imagine that there's a group 
of women talking somewhere and uh,

1244
01:09:41,020 --> 01:09:44,920
you walk by and they're like,
look at that.

1245
01:09:45,010 --> 01:09:49,120
That's one fine hunky man.
How do you feel?

1246
01:09:50,340 --> 01:09:52,520
A.
Yeah,

1247
01:09:52,660 --> 01:09:54,020
whoo.
You feel pretty good,

1248
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,020
but I don't feel threatened.
Does certainly don't feel the difference

1249
01:09:57,021 --> 01:10:02,021
between a man experiencing that with 
women is I'm not going to get gang 

1250
01:10:02,021 --> 01:10:02,021
raped.
Yeah.

1251
01:10:02,021 --> 01:10:02,730
But do you feel good?
Yeah.

1252
01:10:02,950 --> 01:10:03,650
Yeah,
sure.

1253
01:10:03,651 --> 01:10:05,530
Of course you would.
He that implemented.

1254
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:10,720
right?
But it's very different with the 

1255
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:11,510
opposite sex because there's no threat.
It's very different for the,

1256
01:10:11,540 --> 01:10:16,540
with the opposite sex.
Not only because it lets neutralize the 

1257
01:10:16,540 --> 01:10:16,540
threat part of it,
which is,

1258
01:10:16,540 --> 01:10:17,840
I mean it's,
it's huge for sure,

1259
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:22,990
but there's other stuff going on,
but here's the part that I think men 

1260
01:10:22,990 --> 01:10:26,201
don't intuit until somebody points it 
out to them because men have two 

1261
01:10:26,201 --> 01:10:29,810
different reproductive strategies and 
one of them is about longterm investment

1262
01:10:30,260 --> 01:10:32,990
and the other one is about have sex with
them,

1263
01:10:33,050 --> 01:10:38,050
impregnate them,
and never see them again when a man 

1264
01:10:38,050 --> 01:10:38,450
whistles at a woman.

1265
01:10:39,110 --> 01:10:44,110
Right.
And he compliments essentially how hot 

1266
01:10:44,110 --> 01:10:46,751
she looks.
He is essentially offering to stick her 

1267
01:10:46,751 --> 01:10:49,781
with a child that will then be her 
responsibility for the better part of 

1268
01:10:51,051 --> 01:10:54,260
two decades.
That's not a very nice compliment.

1269
01:10:54,830 --> 01:10:59,830
Right.
Well that's a weird way of looking at 

1270
01:10:59,830 --> 01:10:59,830
it.
I agree with you,

1271
01:10:59,830 --> 01:10:59,990
but I see exactly where you're going 
with that.

1272
01:10:59,991 --> 01:11:04,991
But man,
I never thought about that way before 

1273
01:11:04,991 --> 01:11:04,991
and I don't think most people have 
either.

1274
01:11:04,991 --> 01:11:06,050
Well that was my point though.
It's right in front of us.

1275
01:11:06,780 --> 01:11:10,280
The other thing to that,
so you've just identified,

1276
01:11:10,300 --> 01:11:12,340
you know,
a single guy kept calling maybe,

1277
01:11:12,350 --> 01:11:14,010
right,
but a woman walking

1278
01:11:14,010 --> 01:11:17,610
past a construction site and getting 
five,

1279
01:11:17,611 --> 01:11:19,560
six,
seven guys whistling.

1280
01:11:19,950 --> 01:11:23,670
Who are those girls for?
Not necessarily for her.

1281
01:11:23,940 --> 01:11:28,940
It's communication between the men 
they're signaling than not getting to 

1282
01:11:29,430 --> 01:11:29,940
each other.
Hey,

1283
01:11:29,941 --> 01:11:31,170
did you see that?
I saw that.

1284
01:11:31,171 --> 01:11:33,310
I'm into that and I mean that's,
it's a,

1285
01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:38,510
yes,
it's a total objectification and it 

1286
01:11:38,510 --> 01:11:40,491
renders the woman involved.
He was receiving this thing as almost a 

1287
01:11:40,491 --> 01:11:43,791
nonentity,
but it feels totally personal and yet 

1288
01:11:43,791 --> 01:11:44,430
it's not necessarily about the woman.
And so you know,

1289
01:11:44,431 --> 01:11:48,310
all the discussion of oh my god,
these calls or are awful and it's just,

1290
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:53,320
it's a pain in the ass to walk down the 
street and have to deal with it for a 

1291
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:53,320
young woman.
It's true.

1292
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:57,630
But it's also ignoring the fact of it 
being communication between men and,

1293
01:11:57,690 --> 01:11:59,700
you know,
should they stop probably,

1294
01:12:00,030 --> 01:12:05,030
but um,
but it's not just about male female 

1295
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:05,490
communication.
It's male male competition as well.

1296
01:12:05,710 --> 01:12:10,710
That type of communication though only 
occurs if you've been raised poorly.

1297
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:15,630
You don't have any sisters or you don't 
have any daughters and if you,

1298
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,170
if you have all those things years,
some kind of a monster,

1299
01:12:19,470 --> 01:12:24,470
like if you have a mother that you love 
and a sister that you love and if you 

1300
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:28,680
have daughters and you still can't call 
it some woman walking down the street,

1301
01:12:29,100 --> 01:12:30,480
there's something really wrong with you.

1302
01:12:30,980 --> 01:12:31,820
But.
So,

1303
01:12:32,260 --> 01:12:34,450
um,
when I was day,

1304
01:12:34,650 --> 01:12:35,600
oh,
I think it's,

1305
01:12:35,660 --> 01:12:37,550
it's very,
very wrong,

1306
01:12:37,580 --> 01:12:40,110
but it doesn't work.
It is also so calm.

1307
01:12:40,230 --> 01:12:40,720
Yeah,
I don't.

1308
01:12:40,980 --> 01:12:42,950
I mean it must,
it must work.

1309
01:12:42,951 --> 01:12:45,210
A case works to let the other guys know 
you're not gay.

1310
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:45,750
Right.
So that's,

1311
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:47,430
that's part of it doesn't even do that.

1312
01:12:47,480 --> 01:12:48,810
No,
actually let's,

1313
01:12:48,890 --> 01:12:51,770
I mean this is interesting because I 
think this is something actually heather

1314
01:12:51,771 --> 01:12:55,880
probably won't intuit either,
but I'm wondering if you'll spot it.

1315
01:12:55,881 --> 01:12:56,940
When I,
when I mentioned it,

1316
01:12:57,530 --> 01:13:02,210
which is there is a part of being a male
that.

1317
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:07,240
Because I mean,
the thing is most males in history are 

1318
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:08,820
losers who didn't reproduce,
right?

1319
01:13:09,290 --> 01:13:12,230
Reproduction was not that easy to 
accomplish in human history.

1320
01:13:12,231 --> 01:13:16,460
It was way easier to starve or die on a 
battlefield or a lot of other things.

1321
01:13:16,970 --> 01:13:19,430
Um,
so the,

1322
01:13:19,431 --> 01:13:24,431
um,
there is a way in which there a part of 

1323
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:29,870
the male psyche that plays very remote 
possibilities.

1324
01:13:30,380 --> 01:13:32,080
Right?
And you know,

1325
01:13:32,090 --> 01:13:37,090
it's weird if you're talking about being
in a city and construction workers 

1326
01:13:37,090 --> 01:13:38,240
sitting on a girder,
whistling at somebody walking by.

1327
01:13:39,020 --> 01:13:44,020
If we calculate the chances that any one
of them ended up actually in a 

1328
01:13:44,020 --> 01:13:45,980
conversation with her,
the chances are pretty low.

1329
01:13:46,220 --> 01:13:50,690
But if you imagine that those guys are 
actually acting from a mind that evolved

1330
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:55,720
in much smaller circumstances.
A small town where everybody knew 

1331
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:56,900
everybody.
And so whatever it is in their mind that

1332
01:13:56,901 --> 01:14:01,130
causes them to have these interactions 
would have been much more likely.

1333
01:14:01,131 --> 01:14:03,530
There would be later interactions with 
the same person.

1334
01:14:03,531 --> 01:14:08,531
And so I think that a male that is not 
thinking carefully about what they are 

1335
01:14:09,711 --> 01:14:12,640
doing ends up,
you know,

1336
01:14:13,060 --> 01:14:18,060
flirting with and basically building a 
rapport that is about some future 

1337
01:14:20,591 --> 01:14:24,190
potential that's almost certain never to
be realized.

1338
01:14:24,191 --> 01:14:28,390
But it makes sense to cultivate because,
you know,

1339
01:14:28,450 --> 01:14:33,450
if you cultivate a thousand tiny little 
potentials and almost all of them go 

1340
01:14:34,721 --> 01:14:36,640
bust,
but occasionally one works out.

1341
01:14:36,641 --> 01:14:38,920
That's a win.
So the point is the cost is small.

1342
01:14:39,450 --> 01:14:40,480
Um,
and you know,

1343
01:14:40,540 --> 01:14:43,870
you never know.
The woman who gets cat called might,

1344
01:14:44,580 --> 01:14:47,920
um,
I can't even imagine the circumstance,

1345
01:14:47,921 --> 01:14:50,350
but it's that whole,
you never know.

1346
01:14:50,350 --> 01:14:55,350
It's like,
just dig a hole in the middle of the 

1347
01:14:55,350 --> 01:14:55,350
street.
You might find gold.

1348
01:14:55,350 --> 01:14:56,290
I mean,
it seems like a hail mary,

1349
01:14:56,291 --> 01:15:01,291
but yeah,
sometimes hail mary's work happen some 

1350
01:15:01,291 --> 01:15:05,071
time in history,
but if you had to look at the numbers 

1351
01:15:05,071 --> 01:15:05,350
would probably be pretty staggering.
Okay.

1352
01:15:05,380 --> 01:15:10,380
So as long as we're in this territory,
yes it must have happened in history,

1353
01:15:10,391 --> 01:15:15,391
but so many things that were very remote
contingencies in history have apparently

1354
01:15:16,031 --> 01:15:18,220
produce offspring like,
um,

1355
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:19,720
you know,
the,

1356
01:15:19,910 --> 01:15:24,910
uh,
apparent tendency of people being hung 

1357
01:15:24,910 --> 01:15:25,660
to orgasm.
Right?

1358
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:30,960
What is that?
That is likely to be the body taken one 

1359
01:15:31,151 --> 01:15:33,190
last shot.
There's no point.

1360
01:15:33,310 --> 01:15:38,100
There's no way a new one on me.
You're talking about creation.

1361
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:43,440
So we were talking about.
Well actually I wasn't talking about 

1362
01:15:43,440 --> 01:15:43,440
that,
but it's a better example.

1363
01:15:43,440 --> 01:15:44,400
It shows you that there's some part 
hung.

1364
01:15:44,500 --> 01:15:45,280
What do you mean then?

1365
01:15:45,730 --> 01:15:48,460
I mean the actual execution think 
grammatically.

1366
01:15:48,461 --> 01:15:50,830
I mean being hanged,
being hanged.

1367
01:15:50,831 --> 01:15:52,360
Yeah.
I'm so confused.

1368
01:15:52,361 --> 01:15:55,940
So that'd be a little more orgasms when 
they die.

1369
01:15:55,980 --> 01:15:58,320
I'm working from anecdote here.
I have read that I,

1370
01:15:58,321 --> 01:16:01,330
but I don't know of any checking the 
underwear people just got hung.

1371
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:07,080
But my point would be what has to be 
true in order for such a pattern to 

1372
01:16:07,961 --> 01:16:12,961
evolve?
So let's take auto erotic asphyxiation 

1373
01:16:12,961 --> 01:16:12,961
strategy.
I mean,

1374
01:16:12,961 --> 01:16:14,930
is what you're arguing basically this is
um,

1375
01:16:15,100 --> 01:16:20,100
you know,
dandelions who go to seed as after you 

1376
01:16:20,100 --> 01:16:21,180
pick them and spread their seats,
right?

1377
01:16:21,181 --> 01:16:26,181
Like is that going to work?
Last ditch effort to the production 

1378
01:16:26,181 --> 01:16:26,920
channel are predict hail marys.
And so the point is,

1379
01:16:28,060 --> 01:16:33,060
I think this is probably not obvious 
unless you're used to thinking 

1380
01:16:33,060 --> 01:16:35,521
evolutionarily,
but in order for a pattern to occur 

1381
01:16:35,521 --> 01:16:39,390
where some entity releases sexual 
propagules on death,

1382
01:16:40,270 --> 01:16:45,270
in order for that to evolve,
it has to have worked enough times for 

1383
01:16:45,270 --> 01:16:49,141
that pattern to have accumulated.
And so if autoerotic fixation is the 

1384
01:16:50,501 --> 01:16:53,830
result of people tapping into that thing
and you know,

1385
01:16:53,860 --> 01:16:58,860
traversing a landscape near death in 
order to increase sexual pleasure,

1386
01:16:59,051 --> 01:17:04,051
what that suggests is that that 
landscape near death has actually had a 

1387
01:17:04,051 --> 01:17:08,851
certain amount of reproduction happened 
in it that has resulted in this 

1388
01:17:08,851 --> 01:17:10,250
circuitry being present.
Can you imagine a scenario?

1389
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:15,280
And can you imagine a scenario where 
that trait would be passed down to the 

1390
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:15,280
offspring?

1391
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:16,020
Uh,
I can imagine that.

1392
01:17:16,021 --> 01:17:18,090
I mean,
let's just do it the other way.

1393
01:17:18,170 --> 01:17:23,170
Um,
people have had a lot of sex over 

1394
01:17:23,170 --> 01:17:26,781
evolutionary history.
A lot of bad things have happened to 

1395
01:17:26,781 --> 01:17:30,141
people over evolutionary history.
Every so often those two things 

1396
01:17:30,141 --> 01:17:30,930
intersect,
right?

1397
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,220
In other words,
every so often the catastrophe,

1398
01:17:35,221 --> 01:17:38,670
the enemy spills over the wall,
whatever it is.

1399
01:17:38,910 --> 01:17:41,100
And so I,
I don't know,

1400
01:17:41,890 --> 01:17:43,120
um,
I,

1401
01:17:43,470 --> 01:17:48,470
I don't know what the pattern would be.
It may simply be that jeopardy is the 

1402
01:17:49,711 --> 01:17:53,970
key factor and actually jeopardy would 
be expected to happen an awful lot.

1403
01:17:55,350 --> 01:18:00,240
So for example,
to the extent that had,

1404
01:18:00,330 --> 01:18:05,330
in fact we see a lot of this stuff in 
primates where there's a question about 

1405
01:18:05,330 --> 01:18:05,330
how public,
um,

1406
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:08,730
the sexual interaction between two 
individuals amongst chimps is,

1407
01:18:08,790 --> 01:18:12,720
for example.
So when two chimps are having sex,

1408
01:18:12,750 --> 01:18:16,470
if the mailchimp is not the dominant 
male,

1409
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:19,080
he has everything to lose in being 
discovered.

1410
01:18:19,260 --> 01:18:20,800
So malicious,
right?

1411
01:18:20,910 --> 01:18:23,220
They hide.
And so then the question is,

1412
01:18:23,310 --> 01:18:26,790
is the female advertising that they are 
having sex by making noises that make it

1413
01:18:26,791 --> 01:18:28,950
visible,
in which case that creates jeopardy.

1414
01:18:28,951 --> 01:18:33,951
So there's a whole landscape of stuff 
that has happened in evolutionary 

1415
01:18:34,081 --> 01:18:37,110
history both with humans,
with pre humans,

1416
01:18:37,111 --> 01:18:41,000
with apes.
You know,

1417
01:18:41,090 --> 01:18:41,810
they're not anymore.

1418
01:18:41,860 --> 01:18:46,860
I've heard that argued as well about 
women with very loud moaning of pleasure

1419
01:18:47,261 --> 01:18:48,360
that they're really trying to

1420
01:18:48,410 --> 01:18:50,810
attract other males.
Uh,

1421
01:18:50,811 --> 01:18:54,410
I think that that waS in sex at dawn.
Well,

1422
01:18:54,570 --> 01:18:59,570
I was running.
I would be super cautious about sex at 

1423
01:18:59,570 --> 01:19:00,020
dawn as a book.
That particular finding,

1424
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:05,320
I think is probably right.
Why would you be cautious about sex at 

1425
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:08,870
dawn as a book?
Because the book is,

1426
01:19:08,930 --> 01:19:13,930
I believe,
quite cherry picked in order to produce 

1427
01:19:13,930 --> 01:19:17,981
a particular,
what I regard as a false sophistication 

1428
01:19:17,981 --> 01:19:21,850
about human sexual behavior.
It makes us out to be wantonly 

1429
01:19:21,850 --> 01:19:25,961
promiscuous across time in a way that 
doesn't seem to actually fit with a more

1430
01:19:26,061 --> 01:19:28,850
careful reading of what we are.
How dare you,

1431
01:19:28,851 --> 01:19:31,490
chris ryan,
how dare you?

1432
01:19:32,420 --> 01:19:32,660
Well,

1433
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:33,420
hello.
No,

1434
01:19:33,430 --> 01:19:34,600
I don't know.
I don't know who's right.

1435
01:19:35,540 --> 01:19:40,540
Let's put it this way.
That book is a pretty good strategy for 

1436
01:19:40,540 --> 01:19:41,580
getting people to go to bed with you and
feel sophisticated about.

1437
01:19:42,100 --> 01:19:45,050
Ooh hm.
We'll leave that there.

1438
01:19:47,130 --> 01:19:50,380
Um,
so the chimps hiding in the bushes,

1439
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:52,360
the,
a beta chimps as it were,

1440
01:19:52,690 --> 01:19:57,690
the males would have to hide their 
sexuality from the alphas because the 

1441
01:19:58,031 --> 01:20:03,031
bigger,
stronger males would probably take the 

1442
01:20:03,031 --> 01:20:03,520
meat from them and then their likelihood
of reproducing whoops.

1443
01:20:03,850 --> 01:20:06,070
Would be greaTly diminished.
Oh yeah.

1444
01:20:06,071 --> 01:20:08,010
It would be punished for.
They're going to get cuffed to.

1445
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,000
Yeah.
It's going to get cuffed or,

1446
01:20:09,090 --> 01:20:11,310
or more cuffed.
That's an interesting.

1447
01:20:11,690 --> 01:20:13,530
What does cuffed.
Yeah.

1448
01:20:14,730 --> 01:20:17,600
That's a funny way of describing it.
Coughed.

1449
01:20:20,820 --> 01:20:22,190
Well,
there we are.

1450
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:23,130
Yeah,
we get stuck there.

1451
01:20:23,190 --> 01:20:24,570
Yeah,
sorry,

1452
01:20:24,660 --> 01:20:25,980
sorry,
my apologies.

1453
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:28,920
I should know what that means is that 
I've heard it before,

1454
01:20:28,950 --> 01:20:30,740
but it's now,
um,

1455
01:20:31,590 --> 01:20:36,590
what out of all this can we unpack,
um,

1456
01:20:36,750 --> 01:20:41,750
about the way we're interpreting what's 
acceptable and not acceptable about male

1457
01:20:43,711 --> 01:20:46,480
and female interaction in 2018?
Yeah.

1458
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:47,850
Well,
I mean we're,

1459
01:20:48,540 --> 01:20:50,870
it seems to be getting redefined,
right?

1460
01:20:50,910 --> 01:20:52,260
Yeah.
And it's a hot mess.

1461
01:20:52,630 --> 01:20:57,630
Yeah.
What's wrong with it as like as a 

1462
01:20:57,630 --> 01:20:58,620
biologist is a person who understands 
humans.

1463
01:20:58,950 --> 01:20:59,690
Yeah.
Um,

1464
01:21:01,130 --> 01:21:04,410
let's,
let's go to me to write the me too.

1465
01:21:04,411 --> 01:21:09,411
Movement looks,
looks like an honorable thing at first 

1466
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:17,600
because most men are not nasty human 
beings and don't behave towards women in

1467
01:21:19,981 --> 01:21:22,920
a way that most women have been behaved 
towards by men.

1468
01:21:23,790 --> 01:21:28,090
Almost every woman who at all fits 
there,

1469
01:21:28,180 --> 01:21:31,710
the norms for their culture has been 
harassed in some way.

1470
01:21:32,230 --> 01:21:33,420
Um,
when they were young woman.

1471
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:34,890
That is just,
that is true.

1472
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,340
Most men don't do that.
That's also true.

1473
01:21:38,341 --> 01:21:42,510
So imagining that most men are behaving 
in some kind of a toxic way.

1474
01:21:42,511 --> 01:21:43,860
And I just,
I don't like that word,

1475
01:21:43,861 --> 01:21:48,861
but I'm imagining that because most 
women have experienced harassment,

1476
01:21:49,020 --> 01:21:53,100
most men are therefore harassing is in 
error of logic,

1477
01:21:53,101 --> 01:21:57,540
of statistics of humanity.
So we go from this place of,

1478
01:21:57,990 --> 01:21:59,730
wow,
were there some monsters out there?

1479
01:22:00,270 --> 01:22:05,270
Wow,
was it a good moment to reveal some of 

1480
01:22:05,270 --> 01:22:05,370
the monstrosity that was happening?

1481
01:22:05,790 --> 01:22:10,790
And are there some bright lines like I'm
prepared to draw a couple of bright 

1482
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:14,811
lines.
Everyone deserves not to be touched if 

1483
01:22:14,811 --> 01:22:17,571
they don't want to be touched and 
everyone deserves to exist in a 

1484
01:22:17,571 --> 01:22:20,610
situation where there are no quid pro 
quos a for instance,

1485
01:22:20,611 --> 01:22:25,611
of their employment.
If you want to stay employed or if you 

1486
01:22:25,611 --> 01:22:25,770
wanted to be an advanced in your 
employment,

1487
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:28,220
then you need going to need to do this 
sexual thing with me.

1488
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:32,370
Quid pro quos don't don't be touched 
when you don't want to be touched.

1489
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:35,820
Those things seem honorable and true and
for god's sake,

1490
01:22:35,910 --> 01:22:40,910
can't we all agree to those?
But then it went too far and women are 

1491
01:22:42,211 --> 01:22:47,211
arguing some.
Some women are arguing that it doesn't 

1492
01:22:47,211 --> 01:22:51,291
matter if innocent men go down and 
because many women have experienced 

1493
01:22:51,841 --> 01:22:52,920
this,
it must be all men.

1494
01:22:53,730 --> 01:22:58,730
I mean,
we were actually hearing from people 

1495
01:22:58,730 --> 01:22:59,910
that any boy that you are raising is 
potentially a rapist.

1496
01:23:00,480 --> 01:23:01,980
No,
sorry.

1497
01:23:02,220 --> 01:23:04,890
Most men I know couldn't right?
Actually,

1498
01:23:05,110 --> 01:23:06,400
it's just it's not

1499
01:23:06,430 --> 01:23:11,430
what men are so me two went off the 
rails and it had an opportunity to 

1500
01:23:13,661 --> 01:23:18,661
actually really wake a lot of good men 
up to how ubiquitous the experience of 

1501
01:23:19,540 --> 01:23:24,540
walking around on the streets and I'm 
being catcalled and being harassed and 

1502
01:23:24,540 --> 01:23:28,261
so on as being groped and sometimes 
worse than that is for a woman and it 

1503
01:23:28,261 --> 01:23:32,080
took it to this,
this absurd point where now most I think

1504
01:23:32,230 --> 01:23:33,940
increasingly reasonable people are 
looking at it,

1505
01:23:33,941 --> 01:23:38,941
going,
well then if you're claiming that what 

1506
01:23:38,941 --> 01:23:40,000
else that you're saying isn't true,
and that puts the.

1507
01:23:40,150 --> 01:23:42,550
That puts the early stages of the 
movement at risk.

1508
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:47,590
Now when you see the monsters and they 
are real,

1509
01:23:48,130 --> 01:23:52,210
the male monsters,
monsters are real and you.

1510
01:23:52,380 --> 01:23:55,780
You see that now when they're getting 
exposed,

1511
01:23:55,810 --> 01:23:58,630
like harvey weinstein is a perth easiest
one.

1512
01:23:58,690 --> 01:24:00,190
He's the classic example,
right?

1513
01:24:00,490 --> 01:24:04,000
When a guy or bill cosby,
when these monsters get exposed,

1514
01:24:05,890 --> 01:24:07,120
first of all,
it's a good thing,

1515
01:24:07,150 --> 01:24:10,540
but second of all,
don't you think that the reason why they

1516
01:24:10,541 --> 01:24:15,541
got away with it in the first place was 
because they were able to victimize 

1517
01:24:15,541 --> 01:24:19,411
these people and secret and that they,
they either had enablers or in cosby's 

1518
01:24:20,281 --> 01:24:21,610
case,
everyone was unconscious.

1519
01:24:22,090 --> 01:24:27,090
I mean there's,
there's some great good to exposing 

1520
01:24:27,090 --> 01:24:29,320
these things,
but in doing so,

1521
01:24:29,440 --> 01:24:34,440
the overzealous approach of accusing all
men of being potential rapists is an 

1522
01:24:35,681 --> 01:24:40,681
adjust.
Just an overreaction and the balance 

1523
01:24:40,681 --> 01:24:44,341
itself out.
do you or do you think that it's more 

1524
01:24:44,341 --> 01:24:44,341
complicated than that?
It's gonna.

1525
01:24:44,341 --> 01:24:46,630
It's gonna backfire because the problem 
looks like a power grab,

1526
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,610
but won't the backfiring balance itself 
out?

1527
01:24:48,611 --> 01:24:53,611
I mean people,
reasonable people like you or myself or 

1528
01:24:53,611 --> 01:24:55,450
we're always going to recognize the 
difference that there are monsters.

1529
01:24:55,510 --> 01:24:56,110
Yes.
Right,

1530
01:24:56,111 --> 01:25:01,111
and we're not going to deny monsters 
because someone goes too far and they 

1531
01:25:01,111 --> 01:25:02,020
accused garrison keillor of being a 
monster.

1532
01:25:02,290 --> 01:25:04,660
When we know that that's not true.
It doesn't make sense.

1533
01:25:04,661 --> 01:25:09,661
The story doesn't make sense,
so because most people who I've talked 

1534
01:25:09,661 --> 01:25:13,441
to about the garrison keillor story,
which he was consoling a woman and he 

1535
01:25:13,441 --> 01:25:17,050
touched her back and then she pulled 
back and he apologized and I didn't mean

1536
01:25:17,051 --> 01:25:22,051
to do that,
and then he sent her an email 

1537
01:25:22,051 --> 01:25:22,051
apologizing and she said,
no big deal,

1538
01:25:22,051 --> 01:25:22,051
don't worry about it.

1539
01:25:22,051 --> 01:25:23,650
They were good for awhile and then years
later,

1540
01:25:23,820 --> 01:25:28,820
right when all this me too thing,
she's just decides I remember something 

1541
01:25:28,820 --> 01:25:31,400
that was wrong and let's let's take this
guy down,

1542
01:25:31,980 --> 01:25:34,210
which didn't make any sense that first 
of all,

1543
01:25:34,630 --> 01:25:36,940
well let's leave it alone.
Didn't make any sense,

1544
01:25:36,941 --> 01:25:40,900
but where's garrison keillor now?
Whereas like he hasn't been resurrected,

1545
01:25:40,970 --> 01:25:43,380
it hasn't been resurrected.
They took his shows off the air.

1546
01:25:43,410 --> 01:25:48,410
it doesn't have to decide whether or not
you like him as an artist or creator 

1547
01:25:48,410 --> 01:25:49,660
just like they actually destroyed.
Not just him,

1548
01:25:49,661 --> 01:25:54,661
but his legacy for a hug,
for something that at the time both 

1549
01:25:54,661 --> 01:25:57,700
parties agreed was no big deal.
I just don't understand it.

1550
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:01,270
It's completely unacceptable and it's 
the death of justice.

1551
01:26:01,290 --> 01:26:06,290
Well,
was that just getting caught up in the 

1552
01:26:06,290 --> 01:26:06,880
hysteria of just like trying to find 
todd.

1553
01:26:06,881 --> 01:26:08,870
There's one put that fire out 
immediately.

1554
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:15,640
So we have a couple of problems and one 
of the problems is that the folks who 

1555
01:26:18,441 --> 01:26:22,580
are advancing this movement and the 
other parallel,

1556
01:26:23,180 --> 01:26:28,180
I wish they hadn't taken the term social
justice because we need a replacement 

1557
01:26:28,180 --> 01:26:33,041
term for that that is not overzealous,
but those movements have engaged in a 

1558
01:26:36,381 --> 01:26:41,381
kind of naive conclusion.
Making that makes them inevitably 

1559
01:26:46,190 --> 01:26:51,190
hijack.
They get inevitably hijacked by bad 

1560
01:26:51,190 --> 01:26:51,500
actors.
So if you,

1561
01:26:51,890 --> 01:26:54,290
you are essentially looking at a 
situation,

1562
01:26:54,291 --> 01:26:59,291
if you say,
we must believe all victims,

1563
01:27:00,380 --> 01:27:05,380
that's like putting out a neon sign for 
bad actors that wished to utilize this 

1564
01:27:06,501 --> 01:27:08,060
structure.
Right?

1565
01:27:08,061 --> 01:27:11,390
So and there will be bad actors.
Yes.

1566
01:27:11,460 --> 01:27:13,820
Every population,
male as a population,

1567
01:27:13,821 --> 01:27:18,821
female population,
monstrous males who have been behaving 

1568
01:27:18,821 --> 01:27:22,480
predatorily,
they will be women who will take 

1569
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:23,930
advantage of this and accused people 
without reason.

1570
01:27:24,110 --> 01:27:29,110
I mean we,
I don't know whether the numbers are 

1571
01:27:29,110 --> 01:27:31,841
robust or not,
but I've heard numbers that somewhere 

1572
01:27:31,841 --> 01:27:34,160
between one percent to four percent of 
the population are sociopathic.

1573
01:27:34,490 --> 01:27:39,490
If you set up a system in which we are 
obligated to believe every victim,

1574
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:45,620
then those people will come out of the 
woodwork and they will use this to level

1575
01:27:45,621 --> 01:27:50,621
their enemies and so at the very least,
what that tells you is rule number one,

1576
01:27:52,370 --> 01:27:56,360
you cannot make the rule.
You must believe all victims or you will

1577
01:27:56,361 --> 01:27:59,870
have lots of people piling into the 
category of victim that don't deserve to

1578
01:27:59,871 --> 01:28:04,871
be there and who is hurt most by that 
not only the people who are going to be 

1579
01:28:04,971 --> 01:28:09,971
sabotaged by bad actors,
but the people who have suffered the 

1580
01:28:09,971 --> 01:28:14,530
worst cases of rape.
They are effectively having the terrible

1581
01:28:16,311 --> 01:28:21,311
things that have happened to them 
diluted by stories that are either 

1582
01:28:21,311 --> 01:28:23,090
fictional or minor that are being lumped
in.

1583
01:28:23,091 --> 01:28:28,091
So it's further victimization of them.
It is a transfer of wellbeing from the 

1584
01:28:28,091 --> 01:28:32,801
people who have been most harmed to 
people who have been less harmed or are 

1585
01:28:32,801 --> 01:28:34,960
cynically using these structures.

1586
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:39,960
So if the idea of a me too of the 
reckoning that has finally come for 

1587
01:28:42,861 --> 01:28:47,861
these really terrible guys who were 
getting away with all of this awful 

1588
01:28:47,861 --> 01:28:49,310
stuff.
If that is close to your heart than what

1589
01:28:49,311 --> 01:28:54,311
you should want is a set of rules that 
is careful enough and robust enough that

1590
01:28:54,801 --> 01:28:58,820
we can keep holding those kinds of 
people to account what will happen if we

1591
01:28:58,821 --> 01:29:03,821
don't do that,
and I promise you this from a game 

1592
01:29:03,821 --> 01:29:06,561
theoretic perspective,
if we decide you must believe all 

1593
01:29:06,561 --> 01:29:08,790
victims and all transgressions are 
equally bad,

1594
01:29:08,850 --> 01:29:12,720
we're going to turn the thing to 11 for 
everything from happen.

1595
01:29:12,750 --> 01:29:14,190
I agree with you,
but how did that happen?

1596
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:15,750
If you're,
if you're cynical,

1597
01:29:15,780 --> 01:29:17,870
it's the type of nuance in part.
Yeah,

1598
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:22,880
it is.
It is a death of nuance because if 

1599
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:22,880
you're Wielding this thing as a weapon,
right?

1600
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:23,040
If you.

1601
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,340
What you want to do is turn the tables 
on all men.

1602
01:29:26,341 --> 01:29:29,460
If you want to take power and say you 
listen,

1603
01:29:29,461 --> 01:29:30,870
well,
this is a frightening weapon.

1604
01:29:31,260 --> 01:29:36,230
So in order to make that weapon 
maximally dangerous you,

1605
01:29:36,870 --> 01:29:39,420
you equate your cat call.
Yeah.

1606
01:29:39,421 --> 01:29:40,740
You,
you say it's all one.

1607
01:29:41,940 --> 01:29:46,940
There's nothing a woman could ever do 
that would increase her likelihood of 

1608
01:29:47,370 --> 01:29:49,200
facing any of this.
And you know,

1609
01:29:49,230 --> 01:29:51,300
we should cover that in a second because
that's one of the,

1610
01:29:51,301 --> 01:29:56,301
that's another one of these booby traps 
where you can very easily say the wrong 

1611
01:29:56,581 --> 01:30:01,581
thing and suddenly you're on the 
defensive even though what you said is 

1612
01:30:01,581 --> 01:30:01,710
very rational,

1613
01:30:02,300 --> 01:30:05,750
but also it denies the reality of what 
male,

1614
01:30:05,751 --> 01:30:08,390
female relationships look like when 
they're at all healthy.

1615
01:30:08,660 --> 01:30:12,890
There'S goIng to be risk.
There is risk as you get to know people.

1616
01:30:13,250 --> 01:30:14,900
And I don't,
you know,

1617
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:19,790
we're just meeting say instead of having
met in high school so many years ago,

1618
01:30:20,870 --> 01:30:23,060
I don't know if I like you yet,
you don't know if you liked me yet.

1619
01:30:23,630 --> 01:30:28,630
We're going to take some chances and 
maybe you're going to say something 

1620
01:30:28,630 --> 01:30:28,630
wrong and I'm not going to be thrilled 
with it.

1621
01:30:29,770 --> 01:30:31,690
Are you at fault?
Do I?

1622
01:30:31,990 --> 01:30:33,490
Do I blame you?
Do I cry?

1623
01:30:33,491 --> 01:30:38,491
Harassment?
Because you said something that didn't 

1624
01:30:38,491 --> 01:30:40,891
quite fall right on my ears or did it 
sound right and I kind of like you 

1625
01:30:41,351 --> 01:30:42,460
anyway.
And so I go like,

1626
01:30:42,940 --> 01:30:43,880
it's fine.
You know,

1627
01:30:43,950 --> 01:30:45,250
we're good.
Well,

1628
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:47,380
it really depends on,
you know,

1629
01:30:47,390 --> 01:30:52,390
how,
how I receive that depends a lot on how 

1630
01:30:52,390 --> 01:30:54,100
I feel about you.
Otherwise you could say exactly the same

1631
01:30:54,101 --> 01:30:59,101
words and you know,
you could say it and someone else could 

1632
01:30:59,101 --> 01:31:01,981
say it and from that guy I might feel 
like I kind of wished you hadn't said 

1633
01:31:01,981 --> 01:31:04,951
that,
but that has to mean that that isn't a 

1634
01:31:04,951 --> 01:31:07,471
deep problem that he said it because 
we're engaged with something we're 

1635
01:31:07,471 --> 01:31:08,170
trying to discover.
Do we like each other,

1636
01:31:08,180 --> 01:31:10,090
are we into each other like what's going
on here?

1637
01:31:10,180 --> 01:31:14,890
So the process of discovery is going to 
involve mistake and risk and,

1638
01:31:15,620 --> 01:31:18,570
and even some sort of game plan,
you know,

1639
01:31:18,580 --> 01:31:23,580
you're involved in the social game in 
which you're trying to figure out who 

1640
01:31:23,580 --> 01:31:26,581
each other are and after the fact saying
that guy is kinda gross.

1641
01:31:27,701 --> 01:31:30,130
So the thing that he said was harris 
meant.

1642
01:31:30,430 --> 01:31:31,450
Sorry.
No,

1643
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:32,650
not,
not acceptable.

1644
01:31:32,770 --> 01:31:37,770
It's changing the rules of the game 
based on whether or not you liked a 

1645
01:31:37,770 --> 01:31:38,020
particular individual and that's not a 
legit move.

1646
01:31:39,040 --> 01:31:41,380
So we,
we got to be super careful here.

1647
01:31:43,030 --> 01:31:48,030
One thing that is true is we are facing 
a landscape in which

1648
01:31:50,580 --> 01:31:55,580
we are,
I think effectively rewriting the rules 

1649
01:31:55,580 --> 01:31:59,660
of male female interaction in order to 
make sex with strangers perfectly safe.

1650
01:32:04,150 --> 01:32:09,150
Now,
sex with strangers can't be perfectly 

1651
01:32:09,150 --> 01:32:09,150
safe in a world in which you're dealing 
with.

1652
01:32:09,150 --> 01:32:14,130
Let's say it's one percent sociopath's 
you can't make a world in which it's 

1653
01:32:14,130 --> 01:32:15,970
safe to take a sociopath home and have 
sex with them,

1654
01:32:16,390 --> 01:32:16,900
right?
That,

1655
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:20,500
that's not going to happen,
but in order to try to make it safe,

1656
01:32:20,501 --> 01:32:23,470
we're going to turn up all of these 
protections.

1657
01:32:23,471 --> 01:32:25,310
So for example,
um,

1658
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,580
we've got the issue of affirmative 
consent.

1659
01:32:31,690 --> 01:32:36,610
Now,
affirmative consent is a great fail safe

1660
01:32:37,570 --> 01:32:40,750
in a circumstance where you are dealing 
with a stranger.

1661
01:32:41,740 --> 01:32:46,740
It seems like it would be absolutely 
essential because the danger of a 

1662
01:32:47,351 --> 01:32:52,351
miscommunication is so great that you 
have to be perfectly explicit and there 

1663
01:32:52,691 --> 01:32:55,480
can be.
There's no room for,

1664
01:32:55,840 --> 01:33:00,840
uh,
any coyness or subtlety about it.

1665
01:33:01,510 --> 01:33:04,540
In other words,
it has to effectively be transactional,

1666
01:33:04,730 --> 01:33:09,730
but no courtship that's going to make it
into the history books or literature is 

1667
01:33:09,730 --> 01:33:11,740
going to involve affirmative consent at 
every stage.

1668
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:12,970
You into it.
Yes.

1669
01:33:13,330 --> 01:33:13,810
How about now?

1670
01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:19,080
Yeah.
Did you guys remember that video that 

1671
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:19,080
they released?
There was a video that,

1672
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:20,200
boy,
I don't remember who did it,

1673
01:33:20,500 --> 01:33:25,500
but as essentially showing how consent 
can be sexy and so it shows this 

1674
01:33:25,871 --> 01:33:30,871
millennial couple making out and like 
every few seconds the guy has to ask the

1675
01:33:32,471 --> 01:33:35,530
girl if it's okay if he kisses her,
if it's,

1676
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:39,040
is it okay if I touch you here?
Is it okay if I take your shirt off?

1677
01:33:39,041 --> 01:33:44,041
And she says not yet,
and then they keep going and going and 

1678
01:33:44,041 --> 01:33:44,530
going,
and then the girls asking that guy,

1679
01:33:44,531 --> 01:33:46,810
which is hilarious.
Is it okay if I do this?

1680
01:33:46,820 --> 01:33:48,370
Like what?
Because this is imagined.

1681
01:33:48,910 --> 01:33:50,160
Exactly,
exactly.

1682
01:33:50,170 --> 01:33:52,270
It's not symmetric phosphorus.
Right.

1683
01:33:52,480 --> 01:33:54,250
Well,
that was also an issue with.

1684
01:33:55,060 --> 01:33:58,750
They've sort of abandoned this,
but a few years ago there was this thing

1685
01:33:58,751 --> 01:34:02,290
where if you had sex with someone and 
alcohol was involved,

1686
01:34:02,291 --> 01:34:04,990
you raped them because they could not 
consent,

1687
01:34:05,530 --> 01:34:06,130
but I'm like,
well,

1688
01:34:06,131 --> 01:34:11,131
that means I've been raped a lot of 
times because that's ridiculous like it 

1689
01:34:11,131 --> 01:34:11,410
did,
but it never worked that way.

1690
01:34:11,440 --> 01:34:12,850
It does.
If you want symmetry,

1691
01:34:13,090 --> 01:34:18,090
you would have to say that if the man 
has consumed alcohol and the woman 

1692
01:34:18,090 --> 01:34:18,250
hasn't,
then the woman is raping the man.

1693
01:34:18,610 --> 01:34:21,070
I don't want to freak you out,
but I'm.

1694
01:34:21,730 --> 01:34:26,620
Heather and I have been assuming each 
other's consent for 30 years.

1695
01:34:26,890 --> 01:34:31,890
I mean,
we have inferred it from cues that were 

1696
01:34:31,890 --> 01:34:31,890
not verbal.
You guys didn't discuss.

1697
01:34:31,890 --> 01:34:33,280
What about reading,
writing things down?

1698
01:34:33,660 --> 01:34:34,770
Do you have a chalkboard or.
No,

1699
01:34:34,780 --> 01:34:39,780
I mean,
and the thing is the only thing that 

1700
01:34:39,780 --> 01:34:39,780
keeps us safe from being arrested for 
this.

1701
01:34:39,780 --> 01:34:40,650
We,
we've both done it right now.

1702
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:43,080
It's like,
right,

1703
01:34:43,090 --> 01:34:46,270
you're both criminals.
This,

1704
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:50,210
these changing,
these shifting of the rules.

1705
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:53,410
It seems like it's almost like you were 
talking about game theory.

1706
01:34:53,411 --> 01:34:57,800
It does.
It really does seem like a type of game.

1707
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:03,040
It is life,
but it is a thing where people are 

1708
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:04,850
looking to call people out.
You're looking to score,

1709
01:35:05,100 --> 01:35:07,820
electing to score a.
You're,

1710
01:35:07,821 --> 01:35:12,821
you're finding someone who's done 
something inappropriate or finding 

1711
01:35:12,821 --> 01:35:15,791
someone that has done something that 
used to be appropriate but is no longer 

1712
01:35:15,791 --> 01:35:19,210
and we're looking to establish this new 
parameter and this new way of existing 

1713
01:35:19,210 --> 01:35:23,260
and that there's this.
It takes on this competition element 

1714
01:35:23,260 --> 01:35:24,040
which I'm very familiar with.
I understand competition so I.

1715
01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:27,710
When I see it clearly and I see like 
team behavior,

1716
01:35:27,711 --> 01:35:28,100
I'm like,
well,

1717
01:35:28,101 --> 01:35:30,560
I see what's going on here.
This is not rational thinking.

1718
01:35:30,561 --> 01:35:33,200
This is someone who's trying to score 
points.

1719
01:35:33,201 --> 01:35:35,310
You're trying to get one on the board.
Yes.

1720
01:35:35,330 --> 01:35:39,020
It's absolutely competitive and it's 
mostly competitive at the moment.

1721
01:35:39,021 --> 01:35:42,230
It looks like said if within women and 
it's going to destroy.

1722
01:35:42,231 --> 01:35:44,630
It's actively making male female 
relationships.

1723
01:35:44,900 --> 01:35:48,410
Impossible to navigate,
but I understand it for as a man,

1724
01:35:48,620 --> 01:35:53,620
I get the motivation.
I think that women overwhelmingly have 

1725
01:35:53,620 --> 01:35:58,271
been victimized as opposed to like men 
being victimized by women in that 

1726
01:35:58,271 --> 01:35:58,580
regard.
In terms of being sexually harassed.

1727
01:35:58,581 --> 01:35:59,800
It's not even close.
I mean,

1728
01:35:59,830 --> 01:36:04,830
is it,
is one of the most unbalanced things in 

1729
01:36:04,830 --> 01:36:05,420
our culture ever completely right?
But it's posted in our culture,

1730
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:06,490
right?
This is what we're talking,

1731
01:36:06,530 --> 01:36:11,530
right?
What do we want out of this now that 

1732
01:36:11,530 --> 01:36:14,301
we've now that it's.
But do you want a hundred percent 

1733
01:36:14,301 --> 01:36:18,191
safety?
Do you want to maximize safety at the 

1734
01:36:18,191 --> 01:36:18,200
cost of what?
We have to kill sociopath.

1735
01:36:18,230 --> 01:36:19,730
So I want to do that.
The point is,

1736
01:36:19,731 --> 01:36:22,070
if you want,
if you want absolute safety,

1737
01:36:22,071 --> 01:36:22,380
I mean,
we're,

1738
01:36:22,430 --> 01:36:24,710
we're getting to the point where this is
just robbing.

1739
01:36:24,940 --> 01:36:28,580
Okay?
If the point of this is to make sex safe

1740
01:36:28,670 --> 01:36:33,410
because it's pleasurable,
this is going to rob all of the pleasure

1741
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:34,190
from sex.

1742
01:36:34,190 --> 01:36:34,700
I mean,
it's,

1743
01:36:34,750 --> 01:36:39,290
it's getting to the point where you'd be
crazy to have sex without witnesses.

1744
01:36:39,380 --> 01:36:40,610
You know what I'm saying?
Um,

1745
01:36:41,390 --> 01:36:42,680
but,
but anyway,

1746
01:36:42,681 --> 01:36:46,160
the point is now that the stuff is on 
the table right now,

1747
01:36:46,161 --> 01:36:51,161
that we know that there are monsters,
we know that there are economic forces 

1748
01:36:51,161 --> 01:36:55,001
that actually protect these monsters,
which frankly is a big part of this 

1749
01:36:55,001 --> 01:36:55,570
story,
right?

1750
01:36:55,760 --> 01:37:00,760
Is that the economic structure of 
something like hollywood causes this to 

1751
01:37:00,831 --> 01:37:05,831
continue with it being effectively an 
open secret that these people are 

1752
01:37:05,831 --> 01:37:10,320
abusing women and then silencing them 
and contractually obligating them not to

1753
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:15,400
do anything about it,
that that cancer on the social system is

1754
01:37:16,611 --> 01:37:21,611
now open for discussion and we,
all of us decent folk know that we have 

1755
01:37:22,851 --> 01:37:27,851
to get rid of it.
If you get rid of it though on false 

1756
01:37:27,851 --> 01:37:30,911
pretenses,
I promise you the very same game theory 

1757
01:37:30,911 --> 01:37:32,660
that caused it to happen in the first 
place will cause it to reemerge.

1758
01:37:32,930 --> 01:37:36,080
The only reason it will be harder to 
address the next time.

1759
01:37:36,380 --> 01:37:41,380
Don't you think that this,
the overreaction though has pretty much 

1760
01:37:41,380 --> 01:37:44,621
calmed down post garrison keillor and al
franken and with al frankin,

1761
01:37:44,841 --> 01:37:48,530
obviously there's some pretty obvious 
political ramifications to it.

1762
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:50,900
Um,
I don't think.

1763
01:37:50,990 --> 01:37:55,990
I don't knoW what state it's in.
I haven't seen the nuanced conversation 

1764
01:37:56,530 --> 01:38:01,530
breakout.
I haven't seen the description of what 

1765
01:38:01,530 --> 01:38:05,480
the admin.
So back up the second scene is a 

1766
01:38:05,480 --> 01:38:07,730
doubling down on.
There are no differences between men and

1767
01:38:07,731 --> 01:38:12,731
women.
It's all a social construct who's 

1768
01:38:12,731 --> 01:38:14,981
doubling down.
But where is this happening and the 

1769
01:38:14,981 --> 01:38:14,981
universities where the universities and 
it's spreading.

1770
01:38:14,981 --> 01:38:14,981
I mean,
this is,

1771
01:38:14,981 --> 01:38:19,160
this is what the replies to the google 
memo we're about.

1772
01:38:19,310 --> 01:38:20,030
I mean,
this is,

1773
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:23,270
this is,
but isn't google in a sense an extension

1774
01:38:23,271 --> 01:38:25,180
of the universities in that regard?
It is,

1775
01:38:25,181 --> 01:38:25,930
and it's everywhere.

1776
01:38:26,080 --> 01:38:28,900
But it's also a defacto governance 
structure,

1777
01:38:28,930 --> 01:38:31,030
right?
So it's very frightening.

1778
01:38:31,060 --> 01:38:32,530
And you know,
what happens.

1779
01:38:33,020 --> 01:38:38,020
I was thinking this morning about a how 
a jury of your peers.

1780
01:38:40,210 --> 01:38:45,210
That phrase is now increasingly erie.
Which peers are they peers that believed

1781
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:48,980
some false,
uh,

1782
01:38:49,350 --> 01:38:54,250
some false story about what human beings
are or are these people who are going to

1783
01:38:54,251 --> 01:38:59,251
be able to hear a story that has some 
nuance in some gray area in it and take 

1784
01:38:59,531 --> 01:39:01,300
it in.
And the fact is people,

1785
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:06,580
if you look at what advertisers are 
using to access people,

1786
01:39:06,581 --> 01:39:09,550
if you look at the narratives that exist
in movies,

1787
01:39:09,640 --> 01:39:13,930
people are capable of understanding the 
subtlety of human interactions,

1788
01:39:13,931 --> 01:39:18,931
but they are either pretending or 
convincing themselves in the public 

1789
01:39:18,931 --> 01:39:21,220
space that things are way simpler than 
they actually are.

1790
01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:25,000
And what I don't want to see and what I 
mean,

1791
01:39:25,390 --> 01:39:26,950
again,
I don't have a dog in this fight.

1792
01:39:27,250 --> 01:39:30,610
I'm happily married.
I'm not looking for anything else,

1793
01:39:33,710 --> 01:39:37,450
but uh,
I do want to see this solved in tiMe foR

1794
01:39:37,780 --> 01:39:40,240
our chIldren to face a landscape that 
makes sense.

1795
01:39:40,241 --> 01:39:43,590
And I would like are many students who 
have talked to us about the,

1796
01:39:43,870 --> 01:39:48,340
the confusion of trying to navigate a 
romance in the current circumstance.

1797
01:39:48,341 --> 01:39:51,870
I would like them to what's going on.
Jamie came out yesterday,

1798
01:39:51,871 --> 01:39:56,871
said you guys are talking about it.
I don't know how it affects what you're 

1799
01:39:56,871 --> 01:39:59,031
talking about currently,
but how an outright bought network took 

1800
01:39:59,031 --> 01:39:59,700
down.
Al franken was on newsweek.

1801
01:39:59,701 --> 01:40:04,701
They found it started actually in Japan 
and they traced the whole thing of like 

1802
01:40:04,701 --> 01:40:07,500
the day before Roger Stone tweeted 
something about al franken even starting

1803
01:40:07,501 --> 01:40:10,380
to be taken down.
And they traced the whole interaction of

1804
01:40:11,460 --> 01:40:14,670
bots on twitter doing,
doing this all for a couple of weeks.

1805
01:40:14,820 --> 01:40:19,820
Oh,
it does actual women that said he 

1806
01:40:19,820 --> 01:40:21,870
grabbed there,
but maybe that's this.

1807
01:40:21,870 --> 01:40:24,120
They asked him for.
They asked him for comment and he didn't

1808
01:40:24,121 --> 01:40:26,550
respond yet because this was just within
the last 24 hours.

1809
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:32,360
I don't know.
I don't know what we should do with the 

1810
01:40:32,360 --> 01:40:34,281
franken story because the franken story,
it's not empty the way the garrison 

1811
01:40:34,531 --> 01:40:36,780
keillor story appears to be totally 
empty.

1812
01:40:36,781 --> 01:40:41,781
On the other hand,
and I mean I think this is probably why 

1813
01:40:41,781 --> 01:40:45,140
jamie put it up.
We have to think carefully when you're 

1814
01:40:45,140 --> 01:40:48,951
talking about a senator being brought 
down on the basis of these claims that 

1815
01:40:54,971 --> 01:40:59,971
are tied up in a movement which does not
appear nuanced about the degree of harm 

1816
01:41:01,421 --> 01:41:04,690
done and things like that.
There is something at stake.

1817
01:41:04,691 --> 01:41:06,640
Just you know when there is an 
assassination,

1818
01:41:06,820 --> 01:41:11,410
you have to ask yourself who benefits 
from the absence of this person?

1819
01:41:11,950 --> 01:41:16,950
Right.
That the political aSsassination is not 

1820
01:41:16,950 --> 01:41:16,950
a normal murder.

1821
01:41:16,950 --> 01:41:19,240
It is a political act.
It shifts the balance of something.

1822
01:41:19,540 --> 01:41:22,120
This is not an assassination,
but it functions like one.

1823
01:41:22,150 --> 01:41:27,150
It takes a political actor who stood for
certain things and against other things 

1824
01:41:27,150 --> 01:41:31,411
and represented certain constituencies 
and for others it takes them off the 

1825
01:41:31,411 --> 01:41:32,710
map.
And so when that happens,

1826
01:41:32,980 --> 01:41:37,980
it's really,
it's actually an extension of what we 

1827
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:38,710
were talking about,
the bad actor problem before a bad actor

1828
01:41:38,711 --> 01:41:43,711
can be a sociopath that wants to advance
their own cause or take out a,

1829
01:41:43,901 --> 01:41:47,140
an enemy or something like that.
it can also be a,

1830
01:41:48,100 --> 01:41:53,100
um,
a political apparatus or a corporate 

1831
01:41:53,100 --> 01:41:55,480
entity that wishes to shift the balance 
and the political body like theu ,

1832
01:41:55,570 --> 01:41:58,270
s senate.
So we have to be mindful.

1833
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:02,000
It is yet another reason that we can't 
build naive really.

1834
01:42:02,340 --> 01:42:07,340
But yeah,
this is a very good point because we 

1835
01:42:07,340 --> 01:42:09,621
don't know the motivation of the people 
who came out and we don't know if it's 

1836
01:42:09,621 --> 01:42:09,621
accurate.

1837
01:42:09,621 --> 01:42:09,840
He says it's not accurate.
We don't know.

1838
01:42:09,990 --> 01:42:14,990
We have no idea.
And what's the price point for a botnet 

1839
01:42:14,990 --> 01:42:15,480
that can cause the internet to turn on 
you?

1840
01:42:16,380 --> 01:42:19,860
Maybe it doesn't matter,
but the entry point to that story was he

1841
01:42:20,220 --> 01:42:22,020
took a picture,
a comedic picture.

1842
01:42:22,210 --> 01:42:25,380
Pretend someone's breasts pretending.
Yeah.

1843
01:42:25,440 --> 01:42:26,940
Yeah.
Was it in good taste now,

1844
01:42:27,470 --> 01:42:28,680
was it?
No,

1845
01:42:28,710 --> 01:42:30,600
no,
but there was a little more to that.

1846
01:42:30,690 --> 01:42:35,690
She actually said that he kissed her 
like they were doing some sort of a 

1847
01:42:35,690 --> 01:42:40,011
sketch together and he insisted on 
kissing and then he wants to be wanting 

1848
01:42:40,291 --> 01:42:42,960
to practice the kiss.
She found inappropriate.

1849
01:42:43,090 --> 01:42:44,760
Yeah.
That's why I,

1850
01:42:44,761 --> 01:42:45,380
you know,
I,

1851
01:42:45,381 --> 01:42:50,381
I don't,
I don't love the franken story as an 

1852
01:42:50,381 --> 01:42:51,630
example here because it's murky.
Yes,

1853
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:53,940
I agree.
Garrison keillor,

1854
01:42:53,941 --> 01:42:58,941
very,
very careful to make sure not to accept 

1855
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:06,320
you're damned if you do and damned if 
you don't like garrison keillor is the 

1856
01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:10,280
only one that seems completely clean,
but I can basically guarantee you 

1857
01:43:10,280 --> 01:43:13,560
statistically that there are good men 
who are being taken down.

1858
01:43:13,820 --> 01:43:16,100
Well.
So the last time I was on,

1859
01:43:16,130 --> 01:43:21,130
we talked about matt taibbi and yes,
I don't know one way or the other.

1860
01:43:21,621 --> 01:43:26,621
I don't know matt taibbi,
but that story also looked to me like 

1861
01:43:26,621 --> 01:43:30,311
one in which the portrayal was 
manufactured and he has now just won a 

1862
01:43:30,891 --> 01:43:34,280
settlement from the nation.
The basis of this.

1863
01:43:34,281 --> 01:43:37,700
So anyway,
that one appears to have gone in.

1864
01:43:37,701 --> 01:43:40,630
What I imagine is the right direction.
Um,

1865
01:43:41,620 --> 01:43:42,950
so that,
that's positive,

1866
01:43:43,430 --> 01:43:45,530
but I want to return to an earlier 
point.

1867
01:43:47,060 --> 01:43:50,990
We are talking about what the rules of 
interaction should.

1868
01:43:51,320 --> 01:43:56,320
It is good that we are talking about it 
and it's good that we're finally 

1869
01:43:56,320 --> 01:43:59,321
addressing the issue of monsters.
Why this didn't get a set loose by bill 

1870
01:44:01,101 --> 01:44:06,101
cosby?
I don't know because that one appeared 

1871
01:44:06,101 --> 01:44:07,910
crystal clear to that one.
Built that one.

1872
01:44:07,940 --> 01:44:09,480
It started off.
Well,

1873
01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:14,600
you know,
I can say as a person who worked as an 

1874
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:17,531
actor for a while,
I heard about that story in the 

1875
01:44:17,531 --> 01:44:18,230
nineties,
but it was one of those weird ones where

1876
01:44:18,231 --> 01:44:23,231
you didn't know if it was like the 
richard gere journal story because that 

1877
01:44:23,231 --> 01:44:23,300
real,
you know what I mean?

1878
01:44:23,650 --> 01:44:26,150
Like I had heard that bill cosby does 
this to women like,

1879
01:44:26,460 --> 01:44:27,710
okay,
I don't know,

1880
01:44:27,730 --> 01:44:30,710
it's so beyond the pale that feels like,
and you don't.

1881
01:44:30,930 --> 01:44:31,960
And then,
but then you know,

1882
01:44:31,990 --> 01:44:34,630
when it's 50 women that come out and say
drug them go,

1883
01:44:34,690 --> 01:44:36,070
okay,
something's going on.

1884
01:44:36,071 --> 01:44:37,640
Becomes clear.
And the problem is,

1885
01:44:37,641 --> 01:44:39,230
it becomes,
in a case like that,

1886
01:44:40,250 --> 01:44:45,250
what would have to be true for the 
stories to be false is pretty extreme.

1887
01:44:45,440 --> 01:44:46,610
But yeah.
So,

1888
01:44:47,010 --> 01:44:48,530
um,
well it's also him.

1889
01:44:48,531 --> 01:44:51,110
There's evidence of him mocking drugging
people.

1890
01:44:51,410 --> 01:44:52,070
I mean,
he,

1891
01:44:52,071 --> 01:44:54,920
he did an episode of the cosby show 
where he drug people.

1892
01:44:55,250 --> 01:45:00,250
He did.
He would talk about it on talk shows 

1893
01:45:00,250 --> 01:45:00,250
about drugging girls.
I mean,

1894
01:45:00,250 --> 01:45:03,080
he most likely was guilty.
Oh,

1895
01:45:03,140 --> 01:45:05,600
I think there's no question and you 
don't need to.

1896
01:45:05,630 --> 01:45:08,030
You don't need the due process.
And this crazy.

1897
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,450
If it was the most complicated 
conspiracy of all time,

1898
01:45:11,690 --> 01:45:14,980
of all these gals got together and said,
I know we should do it.

1899
01:45:15,050 --> 01:45:16,230
Make some noise.
Let's,

1900
01:45:16,320 --> 01:45:18,180
I'll make up the same story for decades 
ago.

1901
01:45:18,770 --> 01:45:23,770
There was,
there would be some sort of evidence of 

1902
01:45:23,770 --> 01:45:23,770
that.
So,

1903
01:45:23,770 --> 01:45:25,490
so in this case,
and in harvey weinstein's case,

1904
01:45:25,491 --> 01:45:30,491
and I think in matt lauer's case,
the evidence is so overwhelming that it 

1905
01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:36,040
overrides our need as members of the 
public to see,

1906
01:45:36,250 --> 01:45:41,250
to,
to withhold judgment until due process 

1907
01:45:41,250 --> 01:45:41,250
has unfolded.
But the point is,

1908
01:45:41,250 --> 01:45:45,461
there's a place at which that stops 
right at which things are murky enough 

1909
01:45:45,461 --> 01:45:49,961
that you have to wait for due process 
and the idea that this movement is 

1910
01:45:49,961 --> 01:45:53,291
actually not really interested in due 
process and it's in fact it challenged 

1911
01:45:53,291 --> 01:45:55,610
his due process and says you have to 
believe victims,

1912
01:45:55,820 --> 01:46:00,820
right?
Asking for evidence is augmenting the 

1913
01:46:00,820 --> 01:46:00,820
problem is victim blaming or,
or whatever.

1914
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:04,190
Um,
thIs is a terrible error.

1915
01:46:04,310 --> 01:46:08,060
And so if we are to get to a state that 
makes sense,

1916
01:46:08,630 --> 01:46:13,630
it has to be one in which monsters are 
held to account in which there's nuance 

1917
01:46:14,451 --> 01:46:19,451
and degrees of guilt and that we don't 
throw everybody out piece.

1918
01:46:19,620 --> 01:46:24,620
Some people can't.
And I can't imagine that bill cosby can 

1919
01:46:24,620 --> 01:46:26,300
be rehabilitated.
But could al franken be rehabilitated?

1920
01:46:26,690 --> 01:46:28,280
If that's the story?
Maybe he could be.

1921
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:33,520
Yeah.
There's a thing where we get to a 

1922
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:33,520
certain age where we no longer thing 
people can grow.

1923
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:38,920
Right?
And like if he was 20 avow frank and 

1924
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:39,410
took that picture when he was 20 and 
we'd be like,

1925
01:46:39,411 --> 01:46:41,120
that's silly kid.
What is he doing?

1926
01:46:41,300 --> 01:46:43,600
That's not something that's appropriate.
What if that was your mom,

1927
01:46:43,610 --> 01:46:45,440
mom swore,
and then you learn and you grow,

1928
01:46:45,950 --> 01:46:50,950
but for those of us who I'm value 
liberty,

1929
01:46:53,310 --> 01:46:58,310
a situation in which we re organize the 
entire landscape to make sex with 

1930
01:46:59,011 --> 01:47:04,011
strangers as safe as it can possibly be.
That is not a landscape that is good for

1931
01:47:05,761 --> 01:47:10,761
everybody.
we need to make a landscape in which 

1932
01:47:10,761 --> 01:47:10,830
people who want to do that are free to 
do it,

1933
01:47:10,860 --> 01:47:14,100
but not everybody is compelled to play 
that game.

1934
01:47:14,460 --> 01:47:19,460
In other words,
people who want to engage in some kind 

1935
01:47:19,460 --> 01:47:22,910
of courtship that is more nuanced and 
frankly fun and deeper and more subtle 

1936
01:47:25,470 --> 01:47:30,150
are free to engage in that and that 
won't be perfectly safe either,

1937
01:47:30,340 --> 01:47:35,340
but what we should want is a landscape 
in which we generate safety for people 

1938
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:41,720
at the level that doesn't cost us 
spectacularly in terms of how 

1939
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:46,020
civilization functions,
and then we need to actually say also,

1940
01:47:46,890 --> 01:47:51,890
and this was a.
This is another tough point where I'm 

1941
01:47:51,890 --> 01:47:52,440
worried that people will hear it in that
monolithic way,

1942
01:47:52,770 --> 01:47:57,770
but the following thing is true.
I believe a woman,

1943
01:47:58,180 --> 01:48:03,180
if civilization functioned well,
a woman should be able to put on the 

1944
01:48:05,551 --> 01:48:10,230
minimum close that the law will allow to
cover herself in oil,

1945
01:48:10,231 --> 01:48:12,840
to walk through town in the middle of 
the night.

1946
01:48:13,220 --> 01:48:17,400
I'm saying things that indicate that 
she's hot to trot.

1947
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:20,400
If she can find the right guy and she 
should be safe to do it,

1948
01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:23,910
but a woman would have to be insane to 
do that.

1949
01:48:24,060 --> 01:48:27,920
It's not a good thing to do,
so we should want a civilization issues,

1950
01:48:27,960 --> 01:48:32,960
legal protection for her to do it.
No sane person should choose to do it 

1951
01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:37,920
because because people,
because it's no sane person,

1952
01:48:38,010 --> 01:48:43,010
would choose to flip bmx bikes on the x 
games and no sane person would choose to

1953
01:48:44,070 --> 01:48:47,190
jump out of planes,
but we should allow them the right to do

1954
01:48:47,191 --> 01:48:52,191
so for that thrill.
I'm going to push back on that a lIttle 

1955
01:48:52,191 --> 01:48:55,161
bit and say risk taking.
When you are putting yourself at risk 

1956
01:48:55,161 --> 01:49:00,141
and you aren't involving someone else 
who is going to see your signals and 

1957
01:49:00,141 --> 01:49:03,681
maybe act on them and then is going to 
have acted on signals that you shouldn't

1958
01:49:04,291 --> 01:49:05,310
have been sending in the first place.

1959
01:49:05,940 --> 01:49:09,180
It's different.
So bmx bike jumping out of a plan,

1960
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:14,550
risk taking is a more common in men than
women on average across cultures.

1961
01:49:14,950 --> 01:49:19,950
Uh,
not to say that a lot of women don't 

1962
01:49:19,950 --> 01:49:19,950
take risks and have fun doing it.
Physical risks,

1963
01:49:19,950 --> 01:49:24,590
but absolutely as risk taking adaptive 
and enjoyable and interesting.

1964
01:49:25,380 --> 01:49:29,610
and if you're risk taking results in you
dying and no one else getting hurt,

1965
01:49:30,300 --> 01:49:32,100
go for it.
How is the man getting her?

1966
01:49:32,101 --> 01:49:34,500
If the woman is taking these risks,
walking on this tree,

1967
01:49:34,620 --> 01:49:37,500
oiled up with a bikini on,
yelling out that she's randy.

1968
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:42,680
If there's a chance that later he is 
held accountable for the kid that 

1969
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:46,791
results or she changed her mind or 
whatever it is that the claim is,

1970
01:49:47,110 --> 01:49:48,010
especially in

1971
01:49:48,010 --> 01:49:50,320
this current climate of believable 
women,

1972
01:49:51,280 --> 01:49:54,010
that is potentially a problem.
I see what you're saying.

1973
01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:59,160
I see where it would be more complicated
than just jumping out of a plane and 

1974
01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:01,630
parachuting,
but it's still voluntary risk taking,

1975
01:50:01,810 --> 01:50:06,810
you know,
you are involved involving another 

1976
01:50:06,810 --> 01:50:06,810
person who's also voluntarily getting 
involved in that.

1977
01:50:07,390 --> 01:50:10,210
well,
unfortunately there's no.

1978
01:50:11,380 --> 01:50:16,380
There's going to be no set rule that we 
can establish that neutralizes these 

1979
01:50:18,791 --> 01:50:19,570
things.
You know,

1980
01:50:19,571 --> 01:50:22,540
you go to disneyland,
I haven't been to disneyland in decades,

1981
01:50:22,541 --> 01:50:24,890
but you should go.
It's nice right now.

1982
01:50:25,060 --> 01:50:27,220
It's fun place,
but if you go to disneyland,

1983
01:50:27,250 --> 01:50:31,600
everything has been rendered perfectly 
safe,

1984
01:50:31,630 --> 01:50:36,630
right?
People have been through it with a fine 

1985
01:50:36,630 --> 01:50:38,431
tooth comb so that nothing bad can 
happen to you and you can have all of 

1986
01:50:38,431 --> 01:50:39,700
this excitement on the rides,
but nothing bad is gonna happen to you.

1987
01:50:39,910 --> 01:50:43,600
We cannot turn civilization into that 
kind of landscape.

1988
01:50:43,750 --> 01:50:48,750
The price of turning it into a landscape
in which you can be a moron and walk 

1989
01:50:49,031 --> 01:50:50,910
through life and nothing bad is gonna 
happen to you.

1990
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:52,600
That price is way too high.

1991
01:50:52,870 --> 01:50:54,700
This is it actually.
So I mean this,

1992
01:50:54,910 --> 01:50:58,840
this thing,
this moment in time in 2018 is a natural

1993
01:50:58,870 --> 01:51:02,430
outgrowth of things like helicopter 
parenting where you pray,

1994
01:51:02,700 --> 01:51:05,890
you keep your children from all possible
danger,

1995
01:51:06,190 --> 01:51:11,190
all possible physical risk,
and you then end up with children who 

1996
01:51:11,190 --> 01:51:14,470
find a fence at and feel unsafe in all 
manner of situations.

1997
01:51:14,860 --> 01:51:19,860
It is impossible to be an adult if you 
don't do trial and error and it's 

1998
01:51:19,860 --> 01:51:23,431
impossible to become a sexual adult if 
you don't engage in some trial and 

1999
01:51:23,431 --> 01:51:23,431
error.
That involves a little bit of risk and I

2000
01:51:23,431 --> 01:51:25,780
don't know.
I don't want physical risk and sexual.

2001
01:51:26,220 --> 01:51:31,220
I'M a play,
but there is going to be some 

2002
01:51:32,410 --> 01:51:37,410
experimenting with those.
There's going to be some even meeting 

2003
01:51:37,410 --> 01:51:37,410
friends.
Exactly,

2004
01:51:37,410 --> 01:51:37,880
exactly.
And some,

2005
01:51:37,890 --> 01:51:42,890
and I think the totally non fraught 
version of this is that we took our kids

2006
01:51:43,001 --> 01:51:48,001
and a 30 undergraduates to the amazon 
because that's one of the most 

2007
01:51:48,001 --> 01:51:49,570
biodiverse places on earth and it's 
extraordinary.

2008
01:51:49,571 --> 01:51:51,880
And for evolutionary biologist,
why wouldn't you go if you could?

2009
01:51:53,530 --> 01:51:58,510
And a lot of our friends thought you're 
taking this little boy's amazon.

2010
01:51:58,900 --> 01:52:03,510
The first time we took them there were 
10 and eight and you know,

2011
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:04,220
we waited,
I wanted,

2012
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:05,630
I wanted to take them sooner.
Uh,

2013
01:52:05,631 --> 01:52:10,631
so I was leading the study abroad trips 
earlier and brett said they're too 

2014
01:52:10,631 --> 01:52:10,631
young,
but you know,

2015
01:52:10,631 --> 01:52:14,101
basically they're too young for us to 
give them the shots that western 

2016
01:52:14,101 --> 01:52:14,200
civilization has afforded us to give 
them,

2017
01:52:14,201 --> 01:52:15,220
to,
um,

2018
01:52:15,370 --> 01:52:17,320
to keep them safe with things like 
yellow fever

2019
01:52:17,890 --> 01:52:22,890
too young to deal with the instructions 
that you need to actually remain.

2020
01:52:23,210 --> 01:52:26,900
So say from jaguars.
Jaguars are not the issue.

2021
01:52:26,930 --> 01:52:30,080
It's more like three falls under it's 
trees falling on you.

2022
01:52:30,081 --> 01:52:34,370
It's water that rises quickly.
Certainly at the point we took them,

2023
01:52:35,100 --> 01:52:38,090
we talked to them a lot in advance as we
talked to our students in advance.

2024
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:43,120
And then we trusted them and you know,
our younger son found a gigantic coral 

2025
01:52:43,941 --> 01:52:48,941
snake at one point and walking ahead of 
us on the trail along with the guide 

2026
01:52:48,941 --> 01:52:50,630
that we happen to have with us.
And he ran back and I'm,

2027
01:52:51,080 --> 01:52:54,440
the guide ran forward and actually pin 
the snakes so we could see it.

2028
01:52:54,441 --> 01:52:55,100
But this,
you know,

2029
01:52:55,340 --> 01:53:00,340
that was a danger that that was,
and god forbid something had happened,

2030
01:53:00,530 --> 01:53:02,780
it would be very hard for us to live 
with ourselves,

2031
01:53:03,260 --> 01:53:08,260
had that gone differently,
but you've exposed your children to 

2032
01:53:08,260 --> 01:53:10,220
risks so that they can then know what to
do in risk happens to them.

2033
01:53:10,580 --> 01:53:15,580
You expose yourself to sexual situations
that aren't stranger sex so that you can

2034
01:53:16,971 --> 01:53:21,110
know how to build courtship and romance 
and love and sex later on,

2035
01:53:22,050 --> 01:53:23,600
like friends,
just a trial and error.

2036
01:53:24,050 --> 01:53:24,730
Friends.
Yeah.

2037
01:53:24,860 --> 01:53:27,530
So there is a,
how do we learn what

2038
01:53:27,530 --> 01:53:32,530
we learn in order to manage the world?
Our developmental environments have to 

2039
01:53:32,530 --> 01:53:36,821
give us model situations that are close 
enough to the situations that we run 

2040
01:53:37,371 --> 01:53:40,610
into as adults that we have the tools to
navigate them.

2041
01:53:40,611 --> 01:53:43,310
And so one of the,
uh,

2042
01:53:43,970 --> 01:53:48,970
I think very difficult things to accept 
as a parent is that if your child is 

2043
01:53:50,871 --> 01:53:53,480
going to be able to manage risk as an 
adult,

2044
01:53:53,870 --> 01:53:56,570
they cannot be made perfectly safe as a 
child,

2045
01:53:56,600 --> 01:54:01,600
which means that you are running the 
risk that something disastrous will 

2046
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:02,480
happen and that you'll have to live with
it.

2047
01:54:03,530 --> 01:54:06,980
If you make your child perfectly safe in
childhood,

2048
01:54:07,040 --> 01:54:10,700
they will be terrible at managing risk 
as adults and then something terrible is

2049
01:54:10,701 --> 01:54:12,230
gonna happen to them.
So,

2050
01:54:12,670 --> 01:54:13,670
uh,
what,

2051
01:54:14,230 --> 01:54:16,550
uh,
what I operate on,

2052
01:54:16,700 --> 01:54:20,720
or maybe I'm reverse engineering,
what the way I think I've learned how to

2053
01:54:20,750 --> 01:54:25,370
behave is something I call a the theory 
of close calls,

2054
01:54:25,730 --> 01:54:30,730
which is that you don't want to have 
disaster strike.

2055
01:54:31,010 --> 01:54:32,330
And in facT,
we've told our children,

2056
01:54:32,331 --> 01:54:32,930
we've said,
look,

2057
01:54:33,140 --> 01:54:35,720
we don't want you to break your arm or 
your leg,

2058
01:54:36,710 --> 01:54:41,710
but you may have,
you may end up doing it and you're 

2059
01:54:41,710 --> 01:54:44,231
allowed to.
Here are the things you're not allowed 

2060
01:54:44,231 --> 01:54:44,870
to do.
You're not allowed to damage your skull.

2061
01:54:45,050 --> 01:54:49,190
You're not allowed to damage your eyes.
You're not allowed to damage your back.

2062
01:54:49,340 --> 01:54:54,340
Right?
You protect those who protect those 

2063
01:54:54,340 --> 01:54:56,531
things at all costs.
And actually when we took the students 

2064
01:54:56,531 --> 01:54:56,531
to,
uh,

2065
01:54:56,531 --> 01:54:57,980
to Ecuador,
we had,

2066
01:54:58,490 --> 01:55:02,150
it wasn't really the only rule,
but we called it the one rule and it was

2067
01:55:02,151 --> 01:55:05,030
really the central guiding principle of 
the trip,

2068
01:55:05,090 --> 01:55:07,880
which was 11 week trip through all these
ecosystems and Ecuador.

2069
01:55:07,881 --> 01:55:10,490
It's really long extended trip with 
students that we knew,

2070
01:55:10,491 --> 01:55:15,491
well we had,
we had been with them all year and we 

2071
01:55:15,491 --> 01:55:15,491
had cultivated community so we knew him 
well.

2072
01:55:15,491 --> 01:55:16,580
And what we said is,
look,

2073
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:19,820
um,
lots of things are gonna happen.

2074
01:55:19,821 --> 01:55:21,770
you're gonna have to navigate on the 
fly.

2075
01:55:22,100 --> 01:55:26,270
Nobody comes home in a box,
nobody comes home in a box.

2076
01:55:26,330 --> 01:55:29,690
And we actually had three close calls on
this trip.

2077
01:55:30,130 --> 01:55:35,130
Um,
and people told us actually that when 

2078
01:55:35,130 --> 01:55:37,550
they experienced serious danger,
this thing actually occurred to them.

2079
01:55:38,030 --> 01:55:40,940
Nobody comes home in a box and it was 
like sober them up.

2080
01:55:41,270 --> 01:55:43,500
But to go back to the theory of close 
calls,

2081
01:55:44,130 --> 01:55:49,130
you can't learn how not to get run over 
by a car,

2082
01:55:49,620 --> 01:55:52,800
by getting somewhat run over by a car.
Right?

2083
01:55:53,070 --> 01:55:56,260
But you can learn from your close calls.
So I had a,

2084
01:55:56,410 --> 01:55:57,480
uh,
a good friend,

2085
01:55:57,481 --> 01:56:01,050
actually somebody that.
So heather and I were not dating in high

2086
01:56:01,051 --> 01:56:01,980
school,
but we were friends.

2087
01:56:01,981 --> 01:56:04,590
We went to the same high school.
Somebody we knew in high school.

2088
01:56:04,590 --> 01:56:09,590
It happened to go to the same college 
that I started at penn and we were 

2089
01:56:09,590 --> 01:56:13,551
walking down the street one day and she 
stepped into the street thinking it was 

2090
01:56:15,751 --> 01:56:19,650
clear and this car whizzed by her at 40 
miles an hour,

2091
01:56:20,130 --> 01:56:21,850
didn't touch her.
Um,

2092
01:56:22,050 --> 01:56:27,050
and so the question is,
what do you think about something like 

2093
01:56:27,050 --> 01:56:27,570
that?
She was unscratched,

2094
01:56:27,930 --> 01:56:31,290
but had she been one second ahead of 
where she was,

2095
01:56:31,291 --> 01:56:34,890
she would have probably been dead.
And so you could think,

2096
01:56:34,891 --> 01:56:39,891
well,
I must be doing something right because 

2097
01:56:39,891 --> 01:56:42,381
I got away with it.
Or you could be thinking the difference 

2098
01:56:42,381 --> 01:56:44,100
between my death and not being scratched
in this case wasn't something that I did

2099
01:56:44,580 --> 01:56:47,070
with any sort of intent.
It was pure luck.

2100
01:56:47,071 --> 01:56:51,240
That saved my life right there.
Therefore I need to figure out how it is

2101
01:56:51,241 --> 01:56:55,080
that I stepped off that curb without 
noticing that that car was coming.

2102
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:57,570
There's something wrong in my model of 
how to live that,

2103
01:56:57,571 --> 01:57:00,630
that I could have gotten that close.
So as you experienced close calls,

2104
01:57:00,631 --> 01:57:04,860
they tell you something about where your
model is broken and you can fix it.

2105
01:57:05,070 --> 01:57:10,070
And so I think what heather's getting at
is learning how to interact with other 

2106
01:57:10,351 --> 01:57:15,351
people,
especially when you're talking about 

2107
01:57:15,351 --> 01:57:17,241
high stakes stuff like romance and sex.
You need to have some room to figure out

2108
01:57:18,931 --> 01:57:23,931
how these relationships are negotiated 
and if the point is these rules are 

2109
01:57:24,780 --> 01:57:29,780
going to be negotiated by some people 
who are going to lay down the law and 

2110
01:57:29,780 --> 01:57:31,290
say you must seek affirmative consent 
every 37 seconds.

2111
01:57:31,560 --> 01:57:36,560
That's not going to work.
It's not going to teach anyBody how you 

2112
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:38,400
actually manage with another human 
being.

2113
01:57:39,930 --> 01:57:44,930
Makes sense.
And I don't know how you teach that to a

2114
01:57:46,231 --> 01:57:50,670
child to manage risk versus reward in 
relationships.

2115
01:57:51,060 --> 01:57:51,430
I mean,
how,

2116
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:53,700
how do you,
how do you know?

2117
01:57:54,150 --> 01:57:59,150
I mean,
one of the things that we hope is that 

2118
01:57:59,150 --> 01:58:01,341
they gained some sort of an 
understanding of human interaction when 

2119
01:58:01,341 --> 01:58:03,120
they're in their teen years,
when there are still at home,

2120
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,840
then they're protected somewhat when 
they go to college.

2121
01:58:07,170 --> 01:58:09,610
And then as they go out into the world.
Yeah,

2122
01:58:09,700 --> 01:58:12,090
it's tough how much information that 
they accumulated.

2123
01:58:12,180 --> 01:58:17,180
You have to let them,
let them do it and allow them to judge 

2124
01:58:17,180 --> 01:58:19,200
for god's sake.
There's this don't judge thing going on.

2125
01:58:19,201 --> 01:58:20,750
You know they will be.
No,

2126
01:58:20,810 --> 01:58:25,810
no,
no exclusion of anyone at any time on 

2127
01:58:25,810 --> 01:58:26,670
the school yard and don't judge anyone 
no matter what they say,

2128
01:58:26,760 --> 01:58:29,130
well,
that's bad for the kid that gets judged.

2129
01:58:29,250 --> 01:58:34,250
That's because there's some behavior 
that sucks and they need to know that 

2130
01:58:34,250 --> 01:58:35,310
it's very uncomfortable for other people
to be around you when you're like that,

2131
01:58:35,311 --> 01:58:40,311
and that's how you understand social 
interaction and this is a big part of 

2132
01:58:40,311 --> 01:58:41,860
how kids grow into adults.
This is how humAns become humans.

2133
01:58:41,861 --> 01:58:41,980
It's

2134
01:58:41,980 --> 01:58:45,460
not just top down from parents and from 
teachers.

2135
01:58:45,461 --> 01:58:50,461
It's largely from peers.
I love what you said about helicopter 

2136
01:58:50,461 --> 01:58:50,461
parenting because I think you're totally
right.

2137
01:58:50,461 --> 01:58:52,090
I think that is part of what's going on 
here.

2138
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:57,240
I think part of what's going on here 
also is this new found ability to 

2139
01:58:57,240 --> 01:58:59,970
complain and communicate.
It's beautiful in the fact that you 

2140
01:58:59,970 --> 01:59:00,400
could exchange information at an 
incredible pace.

2141
01:59:00,401 --> 01:59:05,401
I mean,
we'll never had anything remotely like 

2142
01:59:05,401 --> 01:59:05,401
this in human history,
but it's terrible.

2143
01:59:05,401 --> 01:59:06,130
In the fact that it's hard to figure out
what's noise,

2144
01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:08,890
there's so much chatter going on and if 
you're a dummy,

2145
01:59:08,891 --> 01:59:13,891
you could find other dummies that think 
just like you and you organize a very 

2146
01:59:13,891 --> 01:59:16,810
volatile group and you reinforced 
confirmation bias.

2147
01:59:16,811 --> 01:59:20,980
You all get together.
We interact on a forum and there's a few

2148
01:59:20,981 --> 01:59:23,500
forums that are frequent that are just 
filled with.

2149
01:59:23,550 --> 01:59:27,040
They're just echo chambers and they're 
confusing and like,

2150
01:59:27,041 --> 01:59:29,410
I don't know anybody that thinks like 
this but are here.

2151
01:59:29,411 --> 01:59:34,411
They are all collected,
convinced that there is no biological 

2152
01:59:34,411 --> 01:59:35,710
difference in the sexes and that a trans
woman is a woman.

2153
01:59:35,711 --> 01:59:38,650
If you don't date trans women that 
you're a bigot.

2154
01:59:38,930 --> 01:59:42,070
You know even if you're a heterosexual 
male and she has a penis,

2155
01:59:42,610 --> 01:59:47,610
it's.
There's a lot of squirrelly thinking 

2156
01:59:47,610 --> 01:59:49,621
going on and it's reinforced by others 
and you start thinking you're right and 

2157
01:59:49,621 --> 01:59:52,660
that you are the future and all these 
people out there that are living in this

2158
01:59:52,661 --> 01:59:54,010
archaic,
ancient way,

2159
01:59:54,190 --> 01:59:57,580
they there are artifacts of the past and
they will soon be relegated.

2160
01:59:57,620 --> 01:59:59,420
The history.
Well,

2161
01:59:59,640 --> 02:00:02,660
there's a summary.
Wasn't good enough there.

2162
02:00:02,730 --> 02:00:07,730
there is a a property of our current 
lives that people just need to be more 

2163
02:00:10,221 --> 02:00:13,100
aware of.
We arrive at the present.

2164
02:00:13,130 --> 02:00:18,130
We are partially updated by various 
features like school for modern 

2165
02:00:19,491 --> 02:00:23,210
circumstances,
but we are also partially throwbacks and

2166
02:00:23,211 --> 02:00:25,890
we aren't throwbacks.
Evolutionary psychology,

2167
02:00:25,940 --> 02:00:30,940
in my opinion,
has aired in imagining that we are 

2168
02:00:30,940 --> 02:00:32,981
simply stone age hunter gatherers 
wandering around civilization,

2169
02:00:33,770 --> 02:00:36,590
but we are throwbacks to various places 
in our past,

2170
02:00:36,591 --> 02:00:37,820
some of them recent,
some of them,

2171
02:00:37,821 --> 02:00:42,821
much more remote,
and what we face is an epidemic of 

2172
02:00:43,191 --> 02:00:48,191
novelty.
So novelty Is all of the stuff that we 

2173
02:00:48,381 --> 02:00:53,381
don't have programming on board to 
navigate all of the stuff that your 

2174
02:00:53,450 --> 02:00:57,020
instincts don't tell you what to do.
The foods you know,

2175
02:00:57,021 --> 02:01:02,021
the refined sugar,
the corporation that wants to advertise 

2176
02:01:02,450 --> 02:01:07,450
the cereal to your child so that they 
eat more of it than they should or they 

2177
02:01:07,450 --> 02:01:08,280
eat different stuff than they would be.

2178
02:01:08,720 --> 02:01:13,370
Novelty makes us sick and novelty can 
make you physically sick.

2179
02:01:13,700 --> 02:01:17,660
It can make you psychologically sick.
It can make you socially sick,

2180
02:01:18,050 --> 02:01:21,140
and we can also be the source of great 
change.

2181
02:01:21,260 --> 02:01:26,260
Evolution can deal with novelty,
but not at the rate of change that is 

2182
02:01:26,260 --> 02:01:29,891
happening now.
The rate of change is so high that our 

2183
02:01:29,891 --> 02:01:31,520
evolutionary capacity to deal with 
novelty is outstripped.

2184
02:01:31,700 --> 02:01:33,020
And so I do want to,
you know,

2185
02:01:33,140 --> 02:01:35,390
there is a way in which,
um,

2186
02:01:35,800 --> 02:01:40,800
you know,
if you just listened to little sound 

2187
02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:42,411
soundbites from what we're at,
you could get the wrong idea that were 

2188
02:01:42,411 --> 02:01:44,660
very traditional and in fact our 
relationship isn't traditional at all.

2189
02:01:45,010 --> 02:01:50,010
Um,
but I asked him to carry the second 

2190
02:01:50,010 --> 02:01:50,010
baby,
but he wouldn't do it.

2191
02:01:50,040 --> 02:01:52,850
I would after he was born.
That's quite a lot.

2192
02:01:53,420 --> 02:01:58,420
But um,
we have not thought carefully about the 

2193
02:01:58,420 --> 02:02:02,900
fact that porn is effectively 
functioning like,

2194
02:02:03,490 --> 02:02:04,970
um,
sexuality,

2195
02:02:04,971 --> 02:02:08,120
school for kids,
right?

2196
02:02:08,300 --> 02:02:12,080
You don't learn about sex in school.
Sex ed is kind of a choke.

2197
02:02:12,380 --> 02:02:15,350
People don't take it seriously,
but where do they learn about sex?

2198
02:02:15,351 --> 02:02:20,351
Well,
they learned about it from what they 

2199
02:02:20,351 --> 02:02:20,351
encounter on the internet.
And here's the problem with that.

2200
02:02:20,351 --> 02:02:22,580
That is not an honest report of 
anything.

2201
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:26,480
What that Is,
is the result of competition,

2202
02:02:26,481 --> 02:02:31,481
economic competition between porn 
producers to capture your attention.

2203
02:02:32,930 --> 02:02:37,930
Right?
So what that means is that it pushes in 

2204
02:02:37,930 --> 02:02:40,421
the direction of all sorts of stuff that
people might not be that interested in 

2205
02:02:40,421 --> 02:02:43,370
because this producer wants to take your
attention away from that producer and so

2206
02:02:43,371 --> 02:02:48,371
they make something more extreme or 
certainly triggers that second male 

2207
02:02:48,371 --> 02:02:48,420
strategy.
Yeah,

2208
02:02:48,421 --> 02:02:53,421
that's what I was going to say.
It's the second male strategy of the no 

2209
02:02:53,421 --> 02:02:56,330
strings attached.
A person who you could just hook up with

2210
02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:57,290
a on a whim.

2211
02:02:57,410 --> 02:03:00,320
You're delivering a pizza and she grabs 
you by your shirt and pulls you in.

2212
02:03:00,530 --> 02:03:01,660
It's like what?
Who?

2213
02:03:01,780 --> 02:03:03,620
And that's the norm.
That's the norm.

2214
02:03:03,680 --> 02:03:04,730
Yeah.
Bingo.

2215
02:03:04,731 --> 02:03:09,350
And so what we've effectively done is 
accidentally economically,

2216
02:03:09,351 --> 02:03:14,351
we've announced two children that this 
is what sex looks like and maybe they 

2217
02:03:14,351 --> 02:03:18,761
even get proficient at that kind of sex,
but it's mechanical,

2218
02:03:18,891 --> 02:03:23,891
uninteresting,
and has very little to do with the most 

2219
02:03:23,891 --> 02:03:25,790
rewarding stuff in,
in what it is to be a human being,

2220
02:03:25,791 --> 02:03:28,460
which has to do with deeper,
long lasting relationships.

2221
02:03:28,580 --> 02:03:33,580
So it shouldn't surprise us at all that 
we've arrived at a dysfunctional moment 

2222
02:03:33,580 --> 02:03:36,650
where people are shouting at each other 
about what the rules have to be.

2223
02:03:36,950 --> 02:03:41,950
Because what we've installed as a 
mechanism for learning about these 

2224
02:03:42,891 --> 02:03:47,450
things is not,
it does not have our interests at heart.

2225
02:03:47,990 --> 02:03:51,230
It is an economic entity that is not 
under anyone's control.

2226
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:53,150
And it's quite dangerous.
Now,

2227
02:03:53,540 --> 02:03:56,330
before the inevitable backlash,
oh my god,

2228
02:03:56,331 --> 02:03:59,900
he said porn was bad.
I really do think porn is bad,

2229
02:04:00,440 --> 02:04:03,080
right?
I don't think erotica is bad.

2230
02:04:03,500 --> 02:04:08,500
If somebody wants to make sexual content
with some purpose other than trying to 

2231
02:04:08,600 --> 02:04:13,070
grab your attention and take your money,
then that's valid.

2232
02:04:13,190 --> 02:04:15,290
and it doesn't mean everybody's got to 
be interested in it.

2233
02:04:15,320 --> 02:04:17,690
And it doesn't mean that everybody's got
to produce it.

2234
02:04:17,930 --> 02:04:22,930
But I don't want to see us prevent 
people from making valid sexual 

2235
02:04:23,961 --> 02:04:27,980
statements that are interesting in 
whatever form they take.

2236
02:04:28,100 --> 02:04:31,130
I don't necessarily want to see children
exposed to it willy nilly.

2237
02:04:31,370 --> 02:04:33,590
But my real point is,
um,

2238
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:39,400
you know,
just as there's a distinction between 

2239
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:42,500
the really good stuff that you sometimes
see on your television screen because 

2240
02:04:42,900 --> 02:04:47,900
somebody put together a well thought out
series and broadcast television,

2241
02:04:48,271 --> 02:04:50,310
which is often pretty garbagey.

2242
02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:56,000
there's a big difference between the 
sort of garbagy view of sex that people 

2243
02:04:56,000 --> 02:05:00,201
are getting because the economics are 
driving us in that direction and some 

2244
02:05:00,201 --> 02:05:02,040
more interesting nuanced,
uh,

2245
02:05:02,041 --> 02:05:07,041
adventurous version that we might see if
the landscape wasn't saturated with the,

2246
02:05:07,980 --> 02:05:09,450
um,
the,

2247
02:05:09,451 --> 02:05:10,560
uh,
the porn version.

2248
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:15,000
Well,
I'm just to defend porn.

2249
02:05:15,240 --> 02:05:17,490
I think there's got to be a spectrum of 
porn.

2250
02:05:17,491 --> 02:05:22,491
I'm not a porn investigator,
but I would imagine that there's some 

2251
02:05:22,491 --> 02:05:25,700
romantic couple porn that makes sense 
where it is a husband and wife or 

2252
02:05:26,370 --> 02:05:31,370
boyfriend and girlfriend and the video 
or boy and boy or whatever the fuck you 

2253
02:05:31,370 --> 02:05:31,370
want.
But what,

2254
02:05:31,370 --> 02:05:33,870
what it is,
is natural and healthy.

2255
02:05:33,900 --> 02:05:38,900
There's got to be a market for that.
I can't all be extreme crazy stuff 

2256
02:05:39,091 --> 02:05:40,830
that's just designed to get your 
attention.

2257
02:05:40,831 --> 02:05:41,660
I mean,
it must.

2258
02:05:41,940 --> 02:05:43,220
I think there is,
but I think it's,

2259
02:05:43,470 --> 02:05:44,480
I think it's miscategorized.

2260
02:05:44,940 --> 02:05:49,940
So I mean of,
well I'm not really interested in porn 

2261
02:05:49,940 --> 02:05:53,030
so I don't know what's out there,
but my understanding is that actually 

2262
02:05:53,030 --> 02:05:56,840
there are many people who are producing 
amateur stuff and maybe they have an 

2263
02:05:56,840 --> 02:05:59,040
exhibitionist streak or something,
but that there is,

2264
02:05:59,190 --> 02:06:01,710
you know,
human beings are naturally fascinated by

2265
02:06:01,711 --> 02:06:04,110
human human sex.
Yeah.

2266
02:06:04,111 --> 02:06:09,111
That's a big category I believe is 
couples like amateur couples and some 

2267
02:06:09,111 --> 02:06:13,730
people actually prefer that because it 
seems like real people who were 

2268
02:06:13,730 --> 02:06:18,261
attracted to each other actually having 
sex because it might actually have some 

2269
02:06:18,261 --> 02:06:18,261
information in it.
And it might be,

2270
02:06:18,261 --> 02:06:22,940
you know,
fRankly it might be more exciting 

2271
02:06:22,940 --> 02:06:23,700
because it has some reality to it.
But my point iS,

2272
02:06:24,060 --> 02:06:25,590
you know,
there's a gray area,

2273
02:06:25,591 --> 02:06:30,591
I would say the distinction between porn
and erotic is actually pretty easy to 

2274
02:06:30,591 --> 02:06:33,900
draw and it has to do with whether the 
motivation that caused it to be produced

2275
02:06:33,960 --> 02:06:35,670
is economic.
Right.

2276
02:06:35,700 --> 02:06:37,890
If the motivation that caused it to be 
produced,

2277
02:06:37,891 --> 02:06:40,590
if it would not have been produced 
absent that economic motivation,

2278
02:06:40,950 --> 02:06:45,950
it's porn and I'm suspicious of it.
So 50 shades of grey as porn then I 

2279
02:06:45,950 --> 02:06:47,070
haven't seen it.
Good for you.

2280
02:06:47,490 --> 02:06:48,260
Neither have I.

2281
02:06:51,160 --> 02:06:52,590
It's just,
it's erotic radical.

2282
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:54,450
If none of the female.
Let's let's talk about.

2283
02:06:55,160 --> 02:06:56,550
Yeah,
let's definitely cast judgment.

2284
02:06:58,020 --> 02:06:58,860
Yeah.
Yep.

2285
02:06:59,220 --> 02:07:00,380
I see what you're saying.
Um,

2286
02:07:00,490 --> 02:07:05,490
and I,
I definitely agree that it's school set 

2287
02:07:05,490 --> 02:07:09,350
sex school for children and there's a 
giant issue in that because it is an 

2288
02:07:09,350 --> 02:07:13,311
unrealistic depiction of actual sexual 
interaction for the most part,

2289
02:07:14,190 --> 02:07:19,000
like most sexual encounters are not 
going to go the way they are in porn and

2290
02:07:19,060 --> 02:07:24,060
just like setting your kid in front of a
screen when he or she is really young.

2291
02:07:24,140 --> 02:07:28,620
Mom does not teach that kid how to 
interact with real human beings.

2292
02:07:28,680 --> 02:07:32,250
Right.
If porn is your exposure to sex,

2293
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:35,290
it's going to create a kind of sex 
autism,

2294
02:07:35,920 --> 02:07:36,100
like

2295
02:07:36,100 --> 02:07:41,100
you're not gonna know how to engage with
actual real human beings who can give 

2296
02:07:41,100 --> 02:07:42,120
you feedback.
That's interesting.

2297
02:07:42,180 --> 02:07:43,680
Way to describe it.
Yeah.

2298
02:07:43,690 --> 02:07:45,220
I liked that.
I mean it's a little,

2299
02:07:45,280 --> 02:07:47,350
it's a little dangerous obviously 
because.

2300
02:07:48,030 --> 02:07:49,750
Well for various reasons,
but,

2301
02:07:49,870 --> 02:07:54,870
but just from the point of view that it 
denies you a sense of what the 

2302
02:07:54,941 --> 02:07:59,941
feedback's would look like because 
feedbacks between two people don't look 

2303
02:07:59,941 --> 02:08:00,640
like what happens when somebody writes a
script.

2304
02:08:00,700 --> 02:08:02,290
It's not universal.
It's not generalizable.

2305
02:08:02,300 --> 02:08:04,210
Do you know the very nature of human 
interaction?

2306
02:08:04,211 --> 02:08:09,211
Is that it's one off?
Do you think it's something along the 

2307
02:08:09,211 --> 02:08:09,211
lines.
I mean obviously.

2308
02:08:09,211 --> 02:08:11,630
See here's the problem with porn.
One of the problems with porn is because

2309
02:08:11,631 --> 02:08:16,631
of the accessibility is so high.
It's not like x rated a violent movies 

2310
02:08:16,961 --> 02:08:18,450
or used to be.
They used to be.

2311
02:08:18,490 --> 02:08:20,500
Some movies were x rated for violence.

2312
02:08:20,500 --> 02:08:21,850
Remember that?
Or nc?

2313
02:08:21,851 --> 02:08:22,990
17.
Right?

2314
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:24,510
Um,
but you,

2315
02:08:24,590 --> 02:08:29,590
you could be 13 with a cell phone and 
you have access to all the poor of the 

2316
02:08:29,590 --> 02:08:30,910
world.
And I just think,

2317
02:08:31,770 --> 02:08:36,770
yeah,
so many of these issues I think know we 

2318
02:08:36,770 --> 02:08:39,031
need to be nuanced and very careful once
we're talking about adults when people 

2319
02:08:39,521 --> 02:08:44,521
become adults as a question.
But when we're talking about clearly 

2320
02:08:44,521 --> 02:08:44,830
still kids,
you know,

2321
02:08:44,831 --> 02:08:49,330
should children be exposed to porn?
No.

2322
02:08:49,331 --> 02:08:54,331
They are still developing.
They're still figuring out how to be 

2323
02:08:54,331 --> 02:08:56,491
adults should,
should children be given sex hormones of

2324
02:09:00,100 --> 02:09:05,100
the sex that they are not born to.
Even if they might end up transitioning 

2325
02:09:05,100 --> 02:09:09,301
and becoming translator on almost 
certainly not because the vast number of

2326
02:09:10,691 --> 02:09:14,830
people who end up realizing,
oh actually I was experimenting.

2327
02:09:14,890 --> 02:09:17,080
This is what,
this is what childhood is.

2328
02:09:17,081 --> 02:09:22,081
I was trying on something else and now 
I've made it permanent by virtue of 

2329
02:09:22,081 --> 02:09:23,320
medicalizing the thing.
Yeah,

2330
02:09:23,410 --> 02:09:25,630
you're there.
That's another subject entirely,

2331
02:09:25,631 --> 02:09:27,140
but I completely agree.
You're,

2332
02:09:27,141 --> 02:09:31,330
you're essentially making a permanent 
decision for a trial as early as.

2333
02:09:31,600 --> 02:09:33,730
I mean,
I've heard it argued three years old,

2334
02:09:33,760 --> 02:09:34,880
which is insane.
Yeah.

2335
02:09:35,320 --> 02:09:37,750
It just doesn't seem to.
It doesn't seem to suit.

2336
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:42,520
It doesn't seem to fit any logic.
The only thing that seems to fit is this

2337
02:09:42,521 --> 02:09:45,130
agenda,
that this is a natural,

2338
02:09:45,131 --> 02:09:48,280
normal part of our society in which you 
reinforce it as early as possible.

2339
02:09:48,700 --> 02:09:53,700
Well,
I want to push back on that a little 

2340
02:09:53,700 --> 02:09:55,600
bit.
I think it's very clear there's so much,

2341
02:09:55,690 --> 02:10:00,690
um,
gender confusion that sorts itself out 

2342
02:10:01,300 --> 02:10:04,930
through the natural process of 
development that the idea that we should

2343
02:10:04,931 --> 02:10:09,931
intervene medically when we have no idea
who is going to grow out of it and who's

2344
02:10:13,500 --> 02:10:18,500
going to transition if,
and I don't think we will ever be there 

2345
02:10:18,500 --> 02:10:19,600
because of the nature of human 
development,

2346
02:10:19,601 --> 02:10:24,601
but if it were possible to know who 
actually was committed to this road and 

2347
02:10:25,841 --> 02:10:30,841
going to transition than there is an 
argument to be made that the earlier 

2348
02:10:30,841 --> 02:10:35,010
that they transition,
the more completely they are able to 

2349
02:10:35,010 --> 02:10:38,711
jump the gap.
And so the precautionary principle has 

2350
02:10:38,711 --> 02:10:38,711
to apply here.
That,

2351
02:10:38,711 --> 02:10:41,150
you know,
trans trans is a real condition and some

2352
02:10:41,151 --> 02:10:43,430
people have it and should be allowed to 
transition,

2353
02:10:43,431 --> 02:10:48,431
but allowing children to make that 
decision for themselves when more than,

2354
02:10:49,550 --> 02:10:54,550
more often than not they end up not 
transitioning is frankly,

2355
02:10:55,401 --> 02:10:56,190
it looks criminal too.

2356
02:10:56,390 --> 02:11:01,390
I think in the,
in the modern situation with how little 

2357
02:11:01,390 --> 02:11:04,781
we understand about why it is that some 
people end up a gender dysphoric for 

2358
02:11:06,830 --> 02:11:11,830
life and all of that.
There is no way that we should be a 

2359
02:11:11,830 --> 02:11:14,510
inner interfering early.
You have to let children sort this stuff

2360
02:11:14,511 --> 02:11:16,400
out.
I'm just saying in the abstract,

2361
02:11:16,460 --> 02:11:19,370
it's not that there's no argument for 
doing it early.

2362
02:11:19,371 --> 02:11:24,371
It's at the argument for doing it early 
doesn't come anywhere near the strength 

2363
02:11:24,371 --> 02:11:27,940
to the argument for not doing it early,
which is that these things sort 

2364
02:11:27,940 --> 02:11:31,691
themselves out and actually if you 
really have been born into the wrong 

2365
02:11:31,691 --> 02:11:31,691
body,
know as,

2366
02:11:31,691 --> 02:11:33,670
as is the phrase that is used by,
um,

2367
02:11:34,070 --> 02:11:39,070
by people.
Some of them will have known who are 

2368
02:11:39,070 --> 02:11:42,160
actually legitimately trans.
The earlier the hormonal inputs came in,

2369
02:11:44,300 --> 02:11:46,310
the more fully they would be able to 
transition.

2370
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:47,280
You have a more.
They drank,

2371
02:11:47,390 --> 02:11:49,120
the risk is too high.
The risk is it,

2372
02:11:49,170 --> 02:11:49,550
it's

2373
02:11:49,860 --> 02:11:50,940
unconscionable.
Now,

2374
02:11:51,030 --> 02:11:53,820
isn't that a,
it's so we're,

2375
02:11:53,821 --> 02:11:58,821
we're into some strange blind territory.
When you start saying legitimately 

2376
02:11:58,821 --> 02:12:01,500
trans,
like who was illegitimately trans?

2377
02:12:01,501 --> 02:12:05,820
If you decided we trans,
you're legitimately trans people who are

2378
02:12:05,821 --> 02:12:07,980
wearing it as a,
as a fashion statement.

2379
02:12:08,010 --> 02:12:13,010
How could you discuss how,
how can anyone make that distinction if 

2380
02:12:13,010 --> 02:12:13,010
they're not that person?
I don't,

2381
02:12:13,010 --> 02:12:13,680
I don't.
I don't know if that's,

2382
02:12:13,770 --> 02:12:15,280
I don't know if that's true.
Um,

2383
02:12:15,760 --> 02:12:16,340
I,
I would,

2384
02:12:16,950 --> 02:12:19,260
I bet you're right.
I'm not disagreeing with you,

2385
02:12:19,560 --> 02:12:21,420
but how would we know?
I think,

2386
02:12:21,421 --> 02:12:26,421
you know,
because the cost of being trans in a 

2387
02:12:26,421 --> 02:12:31,131
society that views trans the way ours 
does is so high that there is a

2388
02:12:31,410 --> 02:12:36,410
very,
it's a barrier to telling the world that

2389
02:12:36,831 --> 02:12:41,600
this is how you feel is substantial 
enough to prevent people from.

2390
02:12:42,060 --> 02:12:43,220
I'm flirTing with it

2391
02:12:43,250 --> 02:12:48,250
casually.
I would push back on that because 

2392
02:12:48,250 --> 02:12:50,120
there's people that get face tattoos and
they do weird body modifications.

2393
02:12:50,121 --> 02:12:55,121
It's looked down upon constantly.
People do a lot of things for self hate 

2394
02:12:55,121 --> 02:12:56,870
purposes.
They do a lot of things to shock people.

2395
02:12:57,110 --> 02:13:02,110
They do a lot of things because they 
just want to get a reaction out of 

2396
02:13:02,110 --> 02:13:02,870
people.
I don't necessarily agree with that.

2397
02:13:02,871 --> 02:13:05,210
I think you might,
you might be right,

2398
02:13:05,211 --> 02:13:07,640
that there are people that wear it as a 
fashion statement,

2399
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:13,120
but who are people who have assumed 
traditional or semi traditional gender 

2400
02:13:14,721 --> 02:13:16,790
roles to make that distinction?
Well,

2401
02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:20,180
if we believe in real freedom,
I think we have to let people choose.

2402
02:13:20,240 --> 02:13:23,570
I think we can for sure children choose,
we can't let,

2403
02:13:23,600 --> 02:13:26,510
we certainly can't let parents leap to 
it.

2404
02:13:26,580 --> 02:13:28,760
And so heather has said a number

2405
02:13:28,840 --> 02:13:32,280
so people don't know how they should 
know that she

2406
02:13:32,280 --> 02:13:37,280
is a dyed in the wool toMboy and has 
been a for her whole life.

2407
02:13:37,291 --> 02:13:38,230
She,
uh,

2408
02:13:38,290 --> 02:13:40,320
since I was destroying the frilly 
dresses,

2409
02:13:40,321 --> 02:13:45,321
my mother was putting me destroying the 
frilly dresses and resenting the pink 

2410
02:13:45,631 --> 02:13:47,520
color that your room was painted.
Um,

2411
02:13:47,550 --> 02:13:52,550
but um,
so you essentially a modeled yourself 

2412
02:13:54,540 --> 02:13:57,990
after your dad.
Your dad was a computer scientist,

2413
02:13:57,991 --> 02:14:00,840
one of the early pioneers in operating 
system,

2414
02:14:01,260 --> 02:14:03,840
a authorship and uh,
anyway,

2415
02:14:03,841 --> 02:14:08,130
heather and her had a very strong 
relationship with her dad and she played

2416
02:14:08,131 --> 02:14:12,660
like a boy and I'm.
Heather has asked things.

2417
02:14:12,690 --> 02:14:16,620
He said to me on several occasions was I
will not raise a weak girl.

2418
02:14:17,220 --> 02:14:19,740
I will not raise a hopeless or helpless 
child.

2419
02:14:20,160 --> 02:14:20,820
And so,
you know,

2420
02:14:20,821 --> 02:14:25,821
when I,
when I'd have my nose buried in a book 

2421
02:14:25,821 --> 02:14:26,280
and he'd be out back building a fence,
you're going to come out and help me dig

2422
02:14:26,281 --> 02:14:29,400
postholes and pour the cement and put 
the,

2423
02:14:29,460 --> 02:14:31,230
put in the posts and you're going to do 
this,

2424
02:14:31,770 --> 02:14:34,320
not because I expect that you're going 
to go into fence building,

2425
02:14:34,680 --> 02:14:36,750
uh,
but because you need to know how to work

2426
02:14:36,751 --> 02:14:41,751
with your hands and do physical work in 
the universe and see what the 

2427
02:14:41,751 --> 02:14:41,751
ramifications are.

2428
02:14:41,751 --> 02:14:42,240
Not that he didn't want you reading the 
book.

2429
02:14:42,390 --> 02:14:43,080
Oh,
of course not.

2430
02:14:43,140 --> 02:14:43,820
Yeah.
I mean he,

2431
02:14:44,320 --> 02:14:46,760
you know,
he on other weekends he was taking me to

2432
02:14:46,761 --> 02:14:48,300
a math competition.
So you know,

2433
02:14:48,301 --> 02:14:53,301
there was a lot of abstraction and,
and play with numbers and science as 

2434
02:14:53,301 --> 02:14:57,681
well in sport.
But it was specifically about not 

2435
02:14:57,681 --> 02:15:00,570
assuming what I was going to be capable 
of because I was born a girl.

2436
02:15:00,970 --> 02:15:01,320
that's

2437
02:15:01,820 --> 02:15:05,830
a giant problem with this category of 
men and women.

2438
02:15:05,831 --> 02:15:10,831
Obviously there's this giant spectrum 
inside each category and that should be 

2439
02:15:11,381 --> 02:15:13,360
okay.
It should be all right.

2440
02:15:13,410 --> 02:15:15,040
It means to be okay.
It has to be,

2441
02:15:15,160 --> 02:15:20,160
it has to,
and this is one of the problems with 

2442
02:15:20,160 --> 02:15:22,861
assuming traditional gender roles or 
assuming types of behavior and what some

2443
02:15:24,191 --> 02:15:29,191
people like sexually,
other people would hate and vice verse 

2444
02:15:29,191 --> 02:15:33,301
and some people.
I mean some people can get away with 

2445
02:15:33,301 --> 02:15:36,091
things because women find it attractive.
Whereas another man could do the exact 

2446
02:15:36,091 --> 02:15:38,560
same thing and women who think it's 
disgusting and that's okay too.

2447
02:15:38,660 --> 02:15:43,660
Well,
we have to err in the direction of 

2448
02:15:43,660 --> 02:15:45,431
keeping people safe,
but we can't turn the dial on safety to 

2449
02:15:45,431 --> 02:15:47,220
11 because it will destroy everything 
else will till all the fun.

2450
02:15:47,380 --> 02:15:47,920
What,
what is it?

2451
02:15:47,940 --> 02:15:50,180
I can't imagine that these categories 
are invariant,

2452
02:15:50,540 --> 02:15:55,540
right?
That male looks one way and I mean this 

2453
02:15:55,540 --> 02:15:55,540
is exactly what you're saying,
but it's,

2454
02:15:55,540 --> 02:15:55,540
it's,
you know,

2455
02:15:55,540 --> 02:15:55,790
they,
they,

2456
02:15:55,820 --> 02:16:00,820
many of the people who are arguing 
against the biology of sex and gender 

2457
02:16:00,820 --> 02:16:02,810
say things like gender isn't binary and 
they're right.

2458
02:16:02,930 --> 02:16:04,130
It's not,
but it's,

2459
02:16:04,310 --> 02:16:05,420
it's bi-modal.
These are,

2460
02:16:05,450 --> 02:16:10,450
these are population distributions with 
a lot of variation in them and they're 

2461
02:16:10,450 --> 02:16:14,290
widely overlapping,
but that doesn't mean that the same 

2462
02:16:14,290 --> 02:16:15,440
identical,
but they are broadly overlapping.

2463
02:16:15,900 --> 02:16:17,190
They certainly do.
Right,

2464
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:22,400
and there's been some interesting 
pushback from these older european 

2465
02:16:22,400 --> 02:16:24,240
women,
particularly french women who are like,

2466
02:16:24,241 --> 02:16:29,241
what the fuck are you guys doing?
You're ruining sex romance in courtship 

2467
02:16:29,241 --> 02:16:34,020
and exactly.
They have a different attitude about it 

2468
02:16:34,020 --> 02:16:36,360
and they think that there's a certain 
amount of aggressive behavior from men 

2469
02:16:36,360 --> 02:16:39,100
that they enjoy and they don't want to 
douse that.

2470
02:16:39,370 --> 02:16:42,010
Well.
So somehow this.

2471
02:16:42,040 --> 02:16:44,320
I'm glad we're getting to thiS part of 
the conversation.

2472
02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:50,400
One thing to say is I didn't finish the 
thing that heather is that heather has 

2473
02:16:51,340 --> 02:16:54,580
vocalized that if she grew up in the 
modern era,

2474
02:16:55,210 --> 02:16:58,150
she worries that somebody,
her parents wouldn't have.

2475
02:16:58,151 --> 02:17:03,151
They would have fought back,
but that some people would have been 

2476
02:17:03,151 --> 02:17:03,151
thinking,
oh,

2477
02:17:03,151 --> 02:17:03,151
you're trans.
We need to,

2478
02:17:03,151 --> 02:17:07,860
we need to take care of you and we need 
to give you hormones and things like 

2479
02:17:07,860 --> 02:17:11,281
that.
Because the fact that she played like a 

2480
02:17:11,281 --> 02:17:13,291
boy would have been taken as an 
indication that she was born in the 

2481
02:17:13,291 --> 02:17:14,800
wrong body or something.
And so that can't happen.

2482
02:17:15,850 --> 02:17:18,910
We have to protect people so that they 
can sort out their own stuff in it.

2483
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:24,000
So I mean we have to expand and it 
really feel like we had already kind of 

2484
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:28,291
gotten here,
but I've talked to people who identify 

2485
02:17:28,291 --> 02:17:32,101
as trans who say things like,
I'm trans because I don't fit into my 

2486
02:17:32,741 --> 02:17:37,741
father's mold of a macho man and I 
prefer to read poetry and to which I 

2487
02:17:38,351 --> 02:17:40,120
say,
that's terrific.

2488
02:17:40,750 --> 02:17:44,260
Okay,
be that man and then that that if,

2489
02:17:44,290 --> 02:17:47,260
if that is the extent of why you were 
calling yourself trans,

2490
02:17:47,590 --> 02:17:49,120
I don't think that makes you trans.

2491
02:17:49,840 --> 02:17:54,220
Isn't there an issue and this is not.
I'm not anti any of this,

2492
02:17:54,221 --> 02:17:59,221
but isn't there an issue with saying 
that who you really truly are is 

2493
02:17:59,221 --> 02:18:03,601
dependent upon you getting injections of
hormones that are not native to your 

2494
02:18:03,761 --> 02:18:08,761
body?
Isn't that very odd that we've taken 

2495
02:18:08,761 --> 02:18:13,561
synthetic hormones and made them an 
integral part of who a person is?

2496
02:18:13,690 --> 02:18:18,690
Now again,
I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to 

2497
02:18:18,690 --> 02:18:18,690
do it.
You certainly should be able to do it,

2498
02:18:18,690 --> 02:18:22,561
but it's oddly almost a biologically 
essentialist push perspective coming 

2499
02:18:22,561 --> 02:18:24,730
from people who are denying biology.
But here's this thing that I'm saying.

2500
02:18:24,790 --> 02:18:29,790
If you are who you are,
why is no one willing to accept who they

2501
02:18:30,281 --> 02:18:35,110
are in this situation and instead wants 
to or not.

2502
02:18:35,111 --> 02:18:36,880
I shouldn't say no one is a bad way of 
phrasing it.

2503
02:18:37,210 --> 02:18:42,210
Why is it assumed that if you do feel 
like you were born in the wrong body,

2504
02:18:44,111 --> 02:18:49,111
the only way to change that is to inject
hormones that are not native to your 

2505
02:18:49,271 --> 02:18:50,860
body,
to have surgery,

2506
02:18:51,100 --> 02:18:56,100
to alter yourself,
to assume traditional gender dress and 

2507
02:18:56,100 --> 02:18:58,430
look of the opposite sex.
Like there's like,

2508
02:18:58,900 --> 02:19:03,490
there's a lot of people that pushed back
against women sexualiZing themselves,

2509
02:19:03,760 --> 02:19:08,760
but celebrate trans women sexualizing 
themselves to look more like women 

2510
02:19:10,301 --> 02:19:15,301
because they think this is a feeling of 
empowerment for these women that look 

2511
02:19:15,301 --> 02:19:15,301
how beautiful they are.
You go girl,

2512
02:19:15,301 --> 02:19:18,550
look at those legs like there's this 
thing about it where it's like,

2513
02:19:18,551 --> 02:19:23,551
it's celebrated as this merging of your 
true self.

2514
02:19:24,520 --> 02:19:24,940
This,

2515
02:19:25,160 --> 02:19:30,160
this is one of these places I believe we
have at least a one way failure and 

2516
02:19:30,921 --> 02:19:33,920
maybe a two way failure of empathy,
right?

2517
02:19:33,921 --> 02:19:34,600
So,
um,

2518
02:19:34,970 --> 02:19:36,230
I've spent,
you know,

2519
02:19:36,231 --> 02:19:41,231
we,
we have lots of history with trans 

2520
02:19:41,231 --> 02:19:41,231
students who,
you know,

2521
02:19:41,540 --> 02:19:46,540
at first I must say there's a lot of 
trans folks at evergreen and at first 

2522
02:19:46,540 --> 02:19:49,550
when we first arrived it was odd to me.
Like what percentage?

2523
02:19:50,060 --> 02:19:54,170
Well that is a hard question because 
when you ask people to self report,

2524
02:19:54,171 --> 02:19:59,171
the number is absurdly high but I don't 
certainly high like it's so I that it is

2525
02:20:02,690 --> 02:20:05,960
reported as 40 percent at evergreen,
which,

2526
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:08,270
which doesn't really make any 48,
four,

2527
02:20:08,271 --> 02:20:09,780
zero,
four 0:40,

2528
02:20:10,140 --> 02:20:12,380
which you can't really can't be the 
case,

2529
02:20:12,381 --> 02:20:17,381
which is part of why I say some people 
are trying it on trying it on as an 

2530
02:20:17,381 --> 02:20:18,750
identity as opposed to any of that.

2531
02:20:18,890 --> 02:20:22,640
That includes lgb but it's,
it's too high.

2532
02:20:22,710 --> 02:20:25,110
When they gravitate though towards the 
school like that,

2533
02:20:25,111 --> 02:20:27,500
that so minded they would.
But you know,

2534
02:20:27,501 --> 02:20:31,430
we have an intuitive sense by just the 
population when people are faking it.

2535
02:20:31,550 --> 02:20:32,000
Well,
no,

2536
02:20:32,050 --> 02:20:34,960
I'm not saying that at all,
but I'm saying that there's like a,

2537
02:20:35,210 --> 02:20:40,210
a desire to affirm a folks in this 
category and so placing yourself,

2538
02:20:42,050 --> 02:20:47,050
I'd rather than faking it,
I would say people who don't agree with 

2539
02:20:48,861 --> 02:20:53,861
the gender norms associated with that,
the gender they were born to run 

2540
02:20:53,861 --> 02:20:55,040
themselves trans.
And to me that doesn't look like trans.

2541
02:20:55,070 --> 02:20:55,940
That's,
that's a,

2542
02:20:56,180 --> 02:21:01,180
that's a misrepresentation of what trans
is because we've also known many 

2543
02:21:01,180 --> 02:21:02,290
students who are really legitimately 
transcend,

2544
02:21:02,300 --> 02:21:07,300
have done surgery or hormones or both 
and are and are better off in their 

2545
02:21:09,861 --> 02:21:13,760
bodies and more at peace with themselves
having done so.

2546
02:21:15,200 --> 02:21:20,030
Um,
so I think it is very hard to appreciate

2547
02:21:20,420 --> 02:21:25,420
a,
we are all in some sense not well by 

2548
02:21:26,421 --> 02:21:31,421
virtue of the fact that we live in a 
civilization that is not a good match 

2549
02:21:31,421 --> 02:21:31,421
for,
um,

2550
02:21:31,730 --> 02:21:35,570
for what we bring to the table even are 
the environments we grew up in.

2551
02:21:35,570 --> 02:21:37,580
His children do not match our adult 
environments.

2552
02:21:37,581 --> 02:21:42,581
And so we don't intubate them well.
And that causes all kinds of health 

2553
02:21:42,581 --> 02:21:43,580
issues,
psychological and otherwise,

2554
02:21:44,270 --> 02:21:49,270
when people find themselves in this 
predicament that we are calling trans,

2555
02:21:50,960 --> 02:21:54,770
they have access to a remedy.
I mean,

2556
02:21:54,800 --> 02:21:59,800
imagine it's just put yourself in the 
mindset of somebody who feels like they 

2557
02:22:00,771 --> 02:22:03,200
should have been a woman.
You know,

2558
02:22:03,350 --> 02:22:08,350
mind you,
I'm now learning that some trans people 

2559
02:22:08,350 --> 02:22:10,541
actually don't feel this way,
that feeling like you were born in the 

2560
02:22:10,541 --> 02:22:10,541
wrong body.
It's not a universal,

2561
02:22:10,541 --> 02:22:12,380
it's very commonly said,
but it is not universal.

2562
02:22:12,560 --> 02:22:14,870
But imagine that,
that that is how you felt.

2563
02:22:15,410 --> 02:22:18,800
You felt like you were being addressed 
as a man.

2564
02:22:18,801 --> 02:22:23,801
You were being understood as a man,
but that's not how you internally felt 

2565
02:22:23,801 --> 02:22:27,160
and there was access to something,
some set of things that would cause the 

2566
02:22:27,160 --> 02:22:30,750
world to finally register you as you 
felt you were right.

2567
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:36,720
It would be very tempting to avail 
yourself of that stuff.

2568
02:22:36,870 --> 02:22:41,870
And I think it's hard for those of us 
who feel at home enough in the bodies 

2569
02:22:41,870 --> 02:22:45,600
that were in to appreciate what the 
pressure must be like.

2570
02:22:45,750 --> 02:22:50,730
If there is something available to you 
to go for it and to cross that gap and I

2571
02:22:50,731 --> 02:22:55,731
also think it's creating a problem as 
we're trying to discuss issues like 

2572
02:22:56,430 --> 02:23:01,430
sexual signaling and makeup and high 
heels and things as people have been 

2573
02:23:01,430 --> 02:23:06,411
discussing.
ThiS causes a special problem for trans 

2574
02:23:06,411 --> 02:23:10,131
folks,
for a trans women because in many cases,

2575
02:23:11,040 --> 02:23:16,040
maybe almost all cases they are using 
these signs that are,

2576
02:23:17,100 --> 02:23:22,100
and I don't want to get in trouble here.
These makeup is well understood to 

2577
02:23:22,320 --> 02:23:25,890
amplify sexual signaling and is not the 
only role is playing,

2578
02:23:25,930 --> 02:23:30,930
is not inherently conscious.
It is not inherently intended to be 

2579
02:23:30,930 --> 02:23:32,400
triggering everybody broadly,
but nonetheless,

2580
02:23:32,700 --> 02:23:33,930
makeup high heels.

2581
02:23:33,930 --> 02:23:34,870
These,
um,

2582
02:23:36,390 --> 02:23:41,390
mechanisms for amplifying a certain set 
of signals are being used by trans folks

2583
02:23:42,480 --> 02:23:47,480
as a mechanism for amplifying their sex.
In other words,

2584
02:23:48,000 --> 02:23:53,000
if somebody puts on a whole bunch of 
makeup in order to send a signal that 

2585
02:23:56,311 --> 02:23:58,260
they are looking for a mate,
let's say.

2586
02:23:58,470 --> 02:24:00,630
I'm not saying everybody who puts on 
makeup is doing that,

2587
02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:04,920
but somebody might put on makeup in 
order to attract male attention.

2588
02:24:05,370 --> 02:24:07,920
That's one kind of signal.
But if you're trans,

2589
02:24:07,950 --> 02:24:11,100
you may put on that makeup in order to 
send a signal.

2590
02:24:11,190 --> 02:24:13,110
I am female,
right?

2591
02:24:13,140 --> 02:24:16,020
So you're sending a signal that is of a 
very different nature.

2592
02:24:16,021 --> 02:24:21,021
And so I think there is a way in which 
trans people are feeling backed against 

2593
02:24:21,021 --> 02:24:24,801
the wall by a discussion that is now 
very clumsily happening about these 

2594
02:24:25,500 --> 02:24:29,820
mechanisms of sexual signaling because 
it puts them in a particular predicament

2595
02:24:29,821 --> 02:24:34,821
where they're feeling like they're about
to be robbed of the very stuff that 

2596
02:24:34,821 --> 02:24:35,460
allows them to,
uh,

2597
02:24:36,000 --> 02:24:40,500
to accentuate their femininity does very
well put.

2598
02:24:40,920 --> 02:24:45,920
Yeah.
I think that's a very important 

2599
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:47,151
distinction to,
especially when you're talking about 

2600
02:24:47,151 --> 02:24:48,490
someone who's trying to self affirm.
Yeah.

2601
02:24:48,540 --> 02:24:50,010
Right.
Now,

2602
02:24:50,710 --> 02:24:55,710
one of the things that came up real 
recently was this Jordan Peterson 

2603
02:24:55,710 --> 02:24:58,780
interview with vice,
which in my opinion,

2604
02:24:58,840 --> 02:25:00,310
especially when you look at the sound 
clip,

2605
02:25:01,240 --> 02:25:06,240
they were talking about women in the 
workplace and women wearing makeup and 

2606
02:25:06,240 --> 02:25:08,950
high heels and things in the workplace.
And I know Jordan very well.

2607
02:25:08,951 --> 02:25:10,150
I love him.
He's a great guy.

2608
02:25:10,180 --> 02:25:13,460
He came off aggressive there and I don't
know why I don't.

2609
02:25:13,680 --> 02:25:16,660
I don't know if he's tired of it or if 
he's digging his heels in.

2610
02:25:16,690 --> 02:25:21,690
I mean,
he's apparently part of a two hour 

2611
02:25:21,690 --> 02:25:23,911
interview.
I kind of felt like he was on the ropes 

2612
02:25:23,911 --> 02:25:23,911
the whole time.
Yes.

2613
02:25:23,911 --> 02:25:26,410
And he also coming off of that big kathy
newman interview in the uk,

2614
02:25:26,411 --> 02:25:30,130
which was like an assault.
I mean the whole thing was just crazy,

2615
02:25:30,580 --> 02:25:33,880
but he came out ahead on that and I 
think,

2616
02:25:33,881 --> 02:25:35,170
um,
there's,

2617
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:40,920
there's,
it's much easier to make the argument 

2618
02:25:40,920 --> 02:25:40,920
that he didn't come out ahead and the 
vice thing,

2619
02:25:40,920 --> 02:25:42,220
especially in the way that they framed 
it,

2620
02:25:43,150 --> 02:25:47,050
but he was talking about women in the 
workplace and maybe women shouldn't wear

2621
02:25:47,051 --> 02:25:51,910
makeup in the workplace and maybe they 
shouldn't wear high heels or dresses.

2622
02:25:53,410 --> 02:25:55,630
So hE did say maybe,
maybe.

2623
02:25:55,660 --> 02:25:56,380
Yes,
he did.

2624
02:25:56,620 --> 02:26:00,050
He didn't say women shouldn't do this.
The interviewer,

2625
02:26:00,070 --> 02:26:05,070
I can't remember his name,
king king j king maybe said so do you 

2626
02:26:05,621 --> 02:26:07,510
think women shouldn't wear makeup and 
high heels then?

2627
02:26:08,260 --> 02:26:09,520
And he said,
maybe.

2628
02:26:09,660 --> 02:26:10,320
Yeah.
And it was,

2629
02:26:10,330 --> 02:26:10,840
you know,
he's,

2630
02:26:11,350 --> 02:26:12,870
he's thinking he's,
he's,

2631
02:26:12,970 --> 02:26:17,320
he's considering options here.
He's not prepared upon first being asked

2632
02:26:17,321 --> 02:26:19,660
a question to say yes,
absolutely or no.

2633
02:26:19,661 --> 02:26:20,650
Absolutely.
This is,

2634
02:26:20,651 --> 02:26:25,651
you know,
this is a sign of a nuanced thinking 

2635
02:26:25,651 --> 02:26:25,651
person.
Yes,

2636
02:26:25,651 --> 02:26:27,400
brain in action in real time.

2637
02:26:27,570 --> 02:26:32,570
The problem with the reaction is the 
exact problem that you're trying to 

2638
02:26:32,570 --> 02:26:32,640
avoid here though when you're saying,
I don't want to get in trouble here,

2639
02:26:32,690 --> 02:26:37,690
you,
you preface that and then you slowly 

2640
02:26:37,690 --> 02:26:37,690
move forward.
Whereas Jordan was like,

2641
02:26:37,690 --> 02:26:37,690
maybe,

2642
02:26:37,800 --> 02:26:39,330
well,
why are they wearing makeup?

2643
02:26:39,331 --> 02:26:41,400
But what did they do?
But I would say that,

2644
02:26:41,401 --> 02:26:46,401
you know,
the generous interpretation and the 

2645
02:26:46,401 --> 02:26:46,710
evolutionary interpretation of what he 
said was,

2646
02:26:48,060 --> 02:26:53,060
look,
the me too movement is arguing that 

2647
02:26:53,060 --> 02:26:56,451
there should be,
that there can be no sexual signals in 

2648
02:26:56,451 --> 02:26:57,000
the workplace at all.
Full Stop.

2649
02:26:58,800 --> 02:27:03,800
that's not going to be possible because 
look at how many other sexual signals 

2650
02:27:03,800 --> 02:27:07,650
there are makeup heels.
Now the response has been,

2651
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:12,800
those aren't sexual signals.
I wear heels and I'm not sexually 

2652
02:27:12,800 --> 02:27:15,981
signaling and you know,
to which the evolutionary response is 

2653
02:27:16,110 --> 02:27:20,190
what heals do is augment sexual signals 
that you were born with.

2654
02:27:20,220 --> 02:27:23,430
Whether or not you're conscious of the 
fact that that is why you were doing it,

2655
02:27:23,580 --> 02:27:25,650
that doesn't make it any less of a 
sexual signal.

2656
02:27:25,740 --> 02:27:30,740
right,
and so what peterson was saying was if 

2657
02:27:30,740 --> 02:27:34,580
we really are going to accept the 
argument that all signals of this type 

2658
02:27:34,580 --> 02:27:37,560
need to be abandoned from you need to be
gotten rid of from the workplace,

2659
02:27:38,040 --> 02:27:42,420
then maybe we actually need to 
investigate all of the other things that

2660
02:27:42,421 --> 02:27:44,430
are sexual signals that aren't being 
talked about right now.

2661
02:27:45,090 --> 02:27:47,280
So there are a couple things.
First of all,

2662
02:27:47,281 --> 02:27:48,810
have you seen the

2663
02:27:49,000 --> 02:27:54,000
clip filmed from the audience of him 
talking about what happened with that 

2664
02:27:54,231 --> 02:27:55,360
vice interview?
No.

2665
02:27:55,390 --> 02:28:00,390
It's well worth your time.
I think it's seven or eight minutes of 

2666
02:28:00,390 --> 02:28:03,910
him talking about what happened.
I do think peterson who I also know,

2667
02:28:03,911 --> 02:28:05,410
I don't think I can give you the cliff 
notes of what.

2668
02:28:05,440 --> 02:28:07,330
Yeah,
I mean the cliff notes are.

2669
02:28:07,780 --> 02:28:08,620
He said,
look,

2670
02:28:08,890 --> 02:28:13,890
this is how one engages in,
fought one advances an idea.

2671
02:28:14,890 --> 02:28:16,870
It doesn't mean something's going to 
happen.

2672
02:28:17,500 --> 02:28:21,530
I think he literally says,
I didn't say women shouldn't wear in the

2673
02:28:21,531 --> 02:28:22,640
workplace.
I said,

2674
02:28:22,670 --> 02:28:24,710
maybe,
and this is what we do,

2675
02:28:24,860 --> 02:28:26,510
and then he describes,
he says,

2676
02:28:26,970 --> 02:28:28,820
um,
let's,

2677
02:28:28,821 --> 02:28:33,821
um,
let's agree that I'm going to put 

2678
02:28:33,821 --> 02:28:37,661
forward 10 things that might happen and 
then let's agree that none of them are 

2679
02:28:37,661 --> 02:28:40,460
going to happen.
So now we can discuss the possibilities.

2680
02:28:40,700 --> 02:28:45,700
So I don't think we know what the actual
interview with jay kang looked like 

2681
02:28:46,400 --> 02:28:50,930
because there was two hours of it and 
I've seen 15 minutes.

2682
02:28:50,990 --> 02:28:52,640
Yeah.
Why won't they release more of it?

2683
02:28:52,730 --> 02:28:54,110
I think they should release the whole 
thing.

2684
02:28:54,200 --> 02:28:57,290
I do think what I saw.
So we don't know the context,

2685
02:28:57,740 --> 02:29:02,740
which my guess is a peterson's pretty 
careful in what he says.

2686
02:29:02,990 --> 02:29:05,030
My guess is the context would be 
revealing.

2687
02:29:05,840 --> 02:29:10,840
I think based on the part that we know 
that he said because it is in the clips 

2688
02:29:10,840 --> 02:29:15,071
that we've seen.
We know something's funny because the 

2689
02:29:15,071 --> 02:29:17,500
editing juxtaposes him seeming to 
contradict himself and he's actually 

2690
02:29:17,500 --> 02:29:18,370
pretty careful not to do that.
Um,

2691
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:23,920
but what he did actually say contains 
what I regard as at least one 

2692
02:29:25,370 --> 02:29:28,700
significant error.
So he says,

2693
02:29:29,630 --> 02:29:34,630
uh,
I do think that in response to the 

2694
02:29:34,630 --> 02:29:37,931
question of our women hypocrites for 
wearing makeup to work and then,

2695
02:29:39,420 --> 02:29:42,800
uh,
I don't want to put words in his mouth,

2696
02:29:42,801 --> 02:29:47,450
but something like demanding not to be 
harassed,

2697
02:29:47,451 --> 02:29:48,470
harassed or something like that.

2698
02:29:48,470 --> 02:29:53,470
So he's forgetting that many of these 
signals aren't conscious and not only 

2699
02:29:53,470 --> 02:29:54,020
doing that,
not conscious,

2700
02:29:54,021 --> 02:29:56,570
but you know,
I saw somebody online discussing this.

2701
02:29:56,571 --> 02:30:01,571
They made a very good point when it's 
actually pretty hard to field if these 

2702
02:30:01,571 --> 02:30:02,810
are signals,
even unconscious ones,

2703
02:30:03,020 --> 02:30:08,020
if they are sexual signals,
why am I wearing one to go to a family 

2704
02:30:08,020 --> 02:30:11,111
reunion?
WhY am I wearing high heels to go to a 

2705
02:30:11,111 --> 02:30:11,111
family reunion?
I am.

2706
02:30:11,111 --> 02:30:12,680
I secretly trying to get lucky at my own
family reunion.

2707
02:30:13,180 --> 02:30:15,350
Um,
and the answer is no.

2708
02:30:15,740 --> 02:30:19,040
This is not a matter what,
what peterson said when,

2709
02:30:19,041 --> 02:30:21,530
you know,
peterson has done so many interviews.

2710
02:30:21,590 --> 02:30:26,590
The fact that he says at clumsy thing 
here doesn't strike me one way or the 

2711
02:30:26,590 --> 02:30:31,091
other,
but I don't want to be put in the 

2712
02:30:31,091 --> 02:30:33,191
position of defending that women are 
hypocritical for wearing makeup and high

2713
02:30:33,681 --> 02:30:34,040
heels.

2714
02:30:34,070 --> 02:30:35,660
there are lots of reasons that you have 
to wear them,

2715
02:30:35,661 --> 02:30:40,661
including social pressure,
including the fact that you are in a 

2716
02:30:40,661 --> 02:30:45,640
landscape of other people wearing them,
and if you stand out as being playing in

2717
02:30:46,581 --> 02:30:49,470
a world of other women who are 
amplifying these things,

2718
02:30:49,471 --> 02:30:52,130
that may actually have implications for 
your ability to earn.

2719
02:30:52,280 --> 02:30:55,520
So there are lots of reasons that you 
might do it that have nothing to do With

2720
02:30:55,521 --> 02:30:58,370
you as an individual trying to signal 
for sexual attention.

2721
02:30:58,700 --> 02:31:02,120
It doesn't mean that those things didn't
evolve as sexual signals,

2722
02:31:02,570 --> 02:31:04,250
right?
Sexual signals to us,

2723
02:31:04,260 --> 02:31:07,310
evolutionary biologists.
This is no news.

2724
02:31:07,311 --> 02:31:10,250
I mean,
if you're a woman and you've got breasts

2725
02:31:10,251 --> 02:31:15,251
and you're walking around in the world,
you're broadcasting a sexual signal and 

2726
02:31:15,251 --> 02:31:16,460
that one is completely unconscious and 
involuntary physiological,

2727
02:31:16,910 --> 02:31:21,910
right?
So the idea that these signals are out 

2728
02:31:21,910 --> 02:31:24,351
there and common should be,
should become something we become 

2729
02:31:24,351 --> 02:31:27,980
comfortable with the fact that males are
involved in all kinds of signaling all 

2730
02:31:28,411 --> 02:31:29,910
the time that,
that,

2731
02:31:29,930 --> 02:31:31,140
uh,
the corner office,

2732
02:31:31,141 --> 02:31:32,430
the mahogany desk,
and you know,

2733
02:31:32,460 --> 02:31:34,970
it's not that a woman can't have a 
corner office and my desk,

2734
02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:40,040
but traditionally speaking,
those hallmarks of a statue acquisition,

2735
02:31:41,560 --> 02:31:46,560
yes,
those things have implication in the 

2736
02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:46,560
sexual landscape.

2737
02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:47,790
That's very powerful as does frankly,
humor.

2738
02:31:48,060 --> 02:31:53,060
The way humor is used has powerful 
implications in terms of sexual 

2739
02:31:53,791 --> 02:31:57,090
signaling,
as does who laughs at your jokes.

2740
02:31:57,180 --> 02:31:59,490
I mean,
if the boss makes a joke,

2741
02:31:59,700 --> 02:32:01,560
everybody laughs whether or not it's 
funny.

2742
02:32:01,860 --> 02:32:03,660
Why is that?
He's got power.

2743
02:32:03,750 --> 02:32:07,290
They're trying to get ahead.
So we can't get rid of all of this.

2744
02:32:07,320 --> 02:32:12,320
We can't get rid of.
And if we look at something like an 

2745
02:32:12,320 --> 02:32:13,410
engagement ring,
right?

2746
02:32:13,590 --> 02:32:17,760
If you were to analyze an engagement 
ring anthropologically,

2747
02:32:18,030 --> 02:32:20,160
right?
So there are these stones.

2748
02:32:20,161 --> 02:32:24,090
Actually the truth of it is there these 
stones that aren't really that rare,

2749
02:32:24,150 --> 02:32:29,150
but they've been made artificially 
scarce and a man will get one of these 

2750
02:32:29,610 --> 02:32:34,610
stones.
And he will put it on a thing that can 

2751
02:32:34,610 --> 02:32:38,241
be put on a woman's finger and the size 
of the stone and the quality of the 

2752
02:32:38,241 --> 02:32:42,651
stone,
even though the stone is not actually 

2753
02:32:42,651 --> 02:32:42,651
useful for very much.

2754
02:32:42,651 --> 02:32:45,800
It is symbolically important and it is 
evidence of the woman's worth in some 

2755
02:32:46,891 --> 02:32:47,940
sense.
In other words,

2756
02:32:47,970 --> 02:32:52,970
the larger the stone indicates that the 
man values her at a greater level of 

2757
02:32:52,970 --> 02:32:55,860
this is an absurd,
an absurd set of signals.

2758
02:32:55,861 --> 02:32:59,040
And we treat it as if it's just nothing.
You know,

2759
02:32:59,041 --> 02:33:04,041
a woman gets an engagement ring,
maybe if she's traditional or friends 

2760
02:33:04,041 --> 02:33:05,340
will look at it and say,
oh,

2761
02:33:05,341 --> 02:33:06,380
that's marvelous.
I mean,

2762
02:33:06,570 --> 02:33:10,380
so we're engaged in all of this archaic 
signaling anyway.

2763
02:33:10,680 --> 02:33:13,620
And when you tune into it,
it is very jarring.

2764
02:33:14,310 --> 02:33:19,170
But it does not make sense to isolate 
one set of these signals and say,

2765
02:33:19,171 --> 02:33:21,360
oh look,
they're signaling right?

2766
02:33:21,361 --> 02:33:26,361
Because those signals are embedded in a 
landscape of signals that we go through 

2767
02:33:26,361 --> 02:33:30,090
our entire life not realizing that we 
are making.

2768
02:33:30,720 --> 02:33:35,720
A last poInt I would make is that we 
also need to recognize that we have a 

2769
02:33:35,720 --> 02:33:39,080
mismatch between personal signaling and 
broadcast signaling.

2770
02:33:40,140 --> 02:33:45,140
So it may be that a woman wears 
something in order to catch a particular

2771
02:33:48,871 --> 02:33:53,871
male's attention,
but the fact that she's wearing it may 

2772
02:33:53,871 --> 02:33:56,571
catch other male's attention and that 
fact may confuse the landscape because,

2773
02:33:57,510 --> 02:34:02,510
um,
men in general may take it as a sign 

2774
02:34:02,510 --> 02:34:05,871
that she's interested in something when 
in fact she's not interested in 

2775
02:34:05,871 --> 02:34:08,901
something.
She's interested in someone who happens 

2776
02:34:08,901 --> 02:34:11,211
to be in this landscape.
So what I hope is that we will recognize

2777
02:34:12,301 --> 02:34:17,301
that the thing that we should all agree 
on is that it is desirable to have the 

2778
02:34:18,371 --> 02:34:23,371
freedom to engage life as you would 
engage us as long as you're not harming 

2779
02:34:24,460 --> 02:34:25,930
others.
You should be.

2780
02:34:25,931 --> 02:34:30,931
You know,
I do not think a polyamorous folks are 

2781
02:34:30,931 --> 02:34:33,910
on the right track.
I think that what they're up to is.

2782
02:34:34,120 --> 02:34:39,120
I mean,
I know from the ones who are serious 

2783
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:40,981
about it and talk about it,
that even within the polyamorous 

2784
02:34:40,981 --> 02:34:44,161
community,
there's a recognition about just how 

2785
02:34:44,161 --> 02:34:44,161
difficult it is to make it work.

2786
02:34:44,161 --> 02:34:47,920
Um,
but I don't really want to interfere 

2787
02:34:47,920 --> 02:34:49,771
with their right to do it.
I would like to be able to talk about 

2788
02:34:49,771 --> 02:34:52,291
whether it's a good idea,
whether it has societal implications 

2789
02:34:52,291 --> 02:34:52,470
that we should be aware of,
but body,

2790
02:34:52,510 --> 02:34:55,690
I feel like they're not on the right 
track and isn't everyone's track.

2791
02:34:55,750 --> 02:35:00,750
I mean,
if we can accept trans folk and we can 

2792
02:35:00,750 --> 02:35:02,860
accept a women to subscribe to cultural 
norms and wearing high heels and make up

2793
02:35:02,861 --> 02:35:06,310
in the workplace,
why can't we accept polyamorous behavior

2794
02:35:06,311 --> 02:35:08,110
and what's.
So that's what I'm telling you.

2795
02:35:08,111 --> 02:35:13,111
Is That difficult though?
I personally would counsel somebody if 

2796
02:35:13,111 --> 02:35:17,160
you know,
and I have had this conversation with 

2797
02:35:17,160 --> 02:35:17,160
many students,
for example,

2798
02:35:17,160 --> 02:35:21,210
um,
I would counsel them away from it 

2799
02:35:21,210 --> 02:35:23,280
because I think it actually prioritizes 
one thing which is desirable,

2800
02:35:24,131 --> 02:35:26,560
but that the cost of it is very,
very high.

2801
02:35:26,860 --> 02:35:28,750
Um,
and what does it prioritize?

2802
02:35:28,840 --> 02:35:33,840
It prioritizes not locking yourself into
a single sexual relationship.

2803
02:35:35,470 --> 02:35:40,470
And I think there's a way in which there
is a terror that surrounds locking 

2804
02:35:40,470 --> 02:35:42,400
yourself into a single sexual 
relationship.

2805
02:35:42,401 --> 02:35:47,401
And part of the tara goes back to what 
we were talking about at the beginning 

2806
02:35:47,401 --> 02:35:47,740
of the conversation.
If you think that,

2807
02:35:48,090 --> 02:35:53,090
um,
beauty max is maxed out at 20 and then 

2808
02:35:53,651 --> 02:35:58,651
it wanes over live then as a woman,
you're trapped in this terrible 

2809
02:36:00,431 --> 02:36:05,431
situation where you've got this power 
long before you know what to do with it 

2810
02:36:05,500 --> 02:36:08,370
and it's going to evaporate,
see better capitalize on it.

2811
02:36:08,380 --> 02:36:11,250
And if you're a man,
you're very frightened that you're going

2812
02:36:11,251 --> 02:36:16,251
to get into a relationship and then 
you're going to watch this person that 

2813
02:36:16,251 --> 02:36:18,970
you love fall apart in front of your 
eyes and you're going to be,

2814
02:36:19,180 --> 02:36:24,180
you know,
you're going to be caught in that 

2815
02:36:24,180 --> 02:36:24,180
situation.

2816
02:36:24,180 --> 02:36:25,660
And I don't think this is the reality of
a pair bond.

2817
02:36:25,870 --> 02:36:28,870
I think the reality of a pair bond is 
way better than we fear,

2818
02:36:29,770 --> 02:36:34,270
but that because we've got this overly 
simplistic mythology surrounding it,

2819
02:36:34,271 --> 02:36:36,190
a lot of people are trying to solve that
problem.

2820
02:36:36,191 --> 02:36:41,191
How do I not get locked into that 
relationship that's going to trap me 

2821
02:36:41,191 --> 02:36:42,400
with somebody who's had do not get bored
and decaying in front of me,

2822
02:36:42,430 --> 02:36:43,280
right?
Um,

2823
02:36:43,450 --> 02:36:45,310
yeah,
I don't think it's a decaying thing.

2824
02:36:45,311 --> 02:36:50,311
I would push back against that.
I would say people just want more 

2825
02:36:50,311 --> 02:36:50,311
variety.
They just want,

2826
02:36:50,311 --> 02:36:54,511
they're attracted to other people and 
they want to act on that and if they 

2827
02:36:54,511 --> 02:36:55,210
find a partner who's also willing to do 
that and they stay together,

2828
02:36:55,570 --> 02:36:58,720
I don't see what would be the issue if 
they wanted to do it.

2829
02:36:58,750 --> 02:36:59,200
Well,
I'm,

2830
02:36:59,330 --> 02:37:02,560
I'm telling you specifically that I 
don't want to stop them from doing it,

2831
02:37:02,561 --> 02:37:06,730
but I do want people to think very 
carefully about the issues.

2832
02:37:06,820 --> 02:37:11,320
I mean,
I'm just speaking as one guy who's lived

2833
02:37:11,710 --> 02:37:13,160
one life,
um,

2834
02:37:13,660 --> 02:37:17,480
the value that I get out of,
um,

2835
02:37:18,260 --> 02:37:23,260
having as close to perfect security at 
home as I can have in a relationship.

2836
02:37:24,440 --> 02:37:29,440
I mean,
heather and I have been all over the 

2837
02:37:29,440 --> 02:37:32,711
world.
We've taken our kids into parts of the 

2838
02:37:32,711 --> 02:37:35,261
amazon that are four hours by boat from 
the nearest road.

2839
02:37:36,230 --> 02:37:38,120
Right.
This is not a boring relationship.

2840
02:37:38,180 --> 02:37:41,480
This relationship has been a nonstop 
adventure.

2841
02:37:41,500 --> 02:37:43,250
Right?
But no one's trying to push polyamory on

2842
02:37:43,260 --> 02:37:44,360
you.
Well,

2843
02:37:45,050 --> 02:37:46,520
a,
I wouldn't say that that's true.

2844
02:37:46,580 --> 02:37:49,850
I would say that the bar,
not as an individual,

2845
02:37:50,090 --> 02:37:55,090
but what I would say is they are 
promoting an idea that this is the 

2846
02:37:55,491 --> 02:37:58,450
sophisticated way to live.
It's the wave of the future if they.

2847
02:37:58,770 --> 02:38:00,320
Yeah.
And that it common is this,

2848
02:38:00,350 --> 02:38:00,770
this,
this.

2849
02:38:00,950 --> 02:38:05,950
Well,
I mean you mentioned sex at dawn 

2850
02:38:05,950 --> 02:38:05,950
yourself.

2851
02:38:05,950 --> 02:38:07,100
and so the idea is,
but chris is my friend and he's crazy.

2852
02:38:08,330 --> 02:38:10,650
There you go.
But what I would say leaves it.

2853
02:38:10,760 --> 02:38:12,770
He might be right.
I'm does believe it.

2854
02:38:12,771 --> 02:38:13,420
And I,
you know,

2855
02:38:13,710 --> 02:38:17,570
fortunately it is right.
I have been convinced by a,

2856
02:38:17,900 --> 02:38:22,900
a friend who I had a long standing 
argument with on this topic and what he 

2857
02:38:22,900 --> 02:38:25,310
convinced me is that a friend who is 
polyamorous,

2858
02:38:25,380 --> 02:38:30,380
yes,
a friend who is polyamorous and this 

2859
02:38:30,380 --> 02:38:30,860
friend has convinced me that it can be 
accomplished,

2860
02:38:30,861 --> 02:38:33,830
that there's somewhere to get.
But he acknowledges that it actually,

2861
02:38:34,160 --> 02:38:39,160
um,
in the case that he points to took 

2862
02:38:39,160 --> 02:38:41,020
several generations.
I'm literally several generations to 

2863
02:38:41,020 --> 02:38:42,530
arrive at a stable a situation.
Well,

2864
02:38:42,531 --> 02:38:44,660
you guys have a wonderful relationship 
though.

2865
02:38:44,690 --> 02:38:48,350
I know many people who have terrible,
terrible relationships.

2866
02:38:48,500 --> 02:38:51,500
And for them,
the notion of monogamy seems absurd.

2867
02:38:51,690 --> 02:38:53,510
It seems like a trap.
You get stuck in,

2868
02:38:53,750 --> 02:38:58,750
you grow to resent each other,
and then he gets sick of each other and 

2869
02:38:58,750 --> 02:38:59,390
then you fight in court until you figure
out who gets all the money.

2870
02:38:59,460 --> 02:39:00,230
Totally.
I would say,

2871
02:39:00,330 --> 02:39:01,700
yeah,
those people shouldn't be together.

2872
02:39:02,040 --> 02:39:02,920
I think you're right.
Yeah.

2873
02:39:03,220 --> 02:39:06,830
But then there's a conflation between 
polyamory and promiscuity,

2874
02:39:06,960 --> 02:39:11,960
right?
That just a free for all a sex with 

2875
02:39:11,960 --> 02:39:13,961
strangers free for all is different from
the kind of careful approach to 

2876
02:39:15,141 --> 02:39:20,141
polyamory that this friend takes,
which still looks extraordinarily 

2877
02:39:20,141 --> 02:39:24,371
difficult to pull off,
given what human beings are from a 

2878
02:39:24,410 --> 02:39:29,410
jealousy perspective,
it isn't monogamy externally difficult 

2879
02:39:29,410 --> 02:39:32,201
to pull off.
I mean is the rate of divorce in this 

2880
02:39:32,201 --> 02:39:32,870
country alone.
It's somewhere around 50 percent.

2881
02:39:33,200 --> 02:39:37,430
And chris rock famously said that's just
50 percent who had the courage to leave.

2882
02:39:37,460 --> 02:39:39,980
How many coward still but here.
But this is.

2883
02:39:40,000 --> 02:39:45,000
This is part of the point about novelty.
We are living in a situation where our 

2884
02:39:45,831 --> 02:39:49,580
narratives sell us a false picture of 
our opportunities.

2885
02:39:50,390 --> 02:39:55,390
Our narratives are partially driven by 
an economy that wants us to be insecure 

2886
02:39:55,390 --> 02:39:56,510
enough to spend money like crazy.

2887
02:39:57,070 --> 02:40:02,070
Um,
and so I'm not telling people that they 

2888
02:40:02,070 --> 02:40:06,731
should live one way or the other.
I'm telling them that they should 

2889
02:40:06,731 --> 02:40:09,850
understand what their real options are.
And polyamory as an experiment is all 

2890
02:40:11,091 --> 02:40:16,091
well and good,
but what happens when you introduce 

2891
02:40:16,091 --> 02:40:17,390
children into the mix?
Right?

2892
02:40:17,480 --> 02:40:18,600
That's very,
very different.

2893
02:40:18,601 --> 02:40:23,601
It's very different because children are
so costly to raise and because human 

2894
02:40:24,571 --> 02:40:29,571
males are wired to fear raising 
offspring that they themselves did not 

2895
02:40:30,540 --> 02:40:35,540
produce genetically.
Now I don't think it makes sense to 

2896
02:40:35,540 --> 02:40:38,490
actually care very much about your genes
and advancing their interests.

2897
02:40:38,491 --> 02:40:42,990
I think this is something evolution has 
stuck us with that is not valuable.

2898
02:40:42,991 --> 02:40:46,740
It's actually destructive,
but nonetheless eventually move past.

2899
02:40:47,010 --> 02:40:52,010
But we are wired for it.
And so what I'm expecting to happen is 

2900
02:40:52,010 --> 02:40:56,220
if you have a large scale experiment in 
polyamory,

2901
02:40:56,550 --> 02:41:01,550
what it's going to do is it is going to 
break down into polygyny and it's going 

2902
02:41:03,631 --> 02:41:06,930
to break down into single motherhood.

2903
02:41:06,930 --> 02:41:11,930
As men leave these relationships in 
order to engage in perhaps more 

2904
02:41:11,930 --> 02:41:16,341
polyamory with younger women and it's 
going to be yet one more thing that is a

2905
02:41:16,950 --> 02:41:21,360
unevenly distributed between the sexes.
So choose your mate wisely.

2906
02:41:21,960 --> 02:41:23,280
Well,
choose your mate wisely,

2907
02:41:23,281 --> 02:41:27,270
but we don't even realize that we are 
interfering with your ability to do that

2908
02:41:27,271 --> 02:41:29,060
in ways that we don't.
Um,

2909
02:41:29,580 --> 02:41:34,580
we don't intuit.
We have a landscape in which nobody is 

2910
02:41:34,580 --> 02:41:38,190
paying attention to the way we are 
interfering in the normal processes that

2911
02:41:38,191 --> 02:41:42,480
would cause you to find a mate with whom
you might have a very rewarding,

2912
02:41:42,790 --> 02:41:47,790
uh,
what lifelong processes are you 

2913
02:41:47,790 --> 02:41:47,790
referring to all?
Let me take an absurd one.

2914
02:41:47,790 --> 02:41:51,180
Okay.
We have no idea what effect deodorant is

2915
02:41:51,181 --> 02:41:54,570
having on us.
Choosing the right mate.

2916
02:41:54,720 --> 02:41:59,490
We do know that in studies that there 
are molecules that you can't consciously

2917
02:41:59,491 --> 02:42:04,491
tell you're detecting that do affect 
mate choice and we know that we're 

2918
02:42:04,491 --> 02:42:04,950
interfering with that stuff.

2919
02:42:04,980 --> 02:42:09,980
Well,
we know that birth control affects that 

2920
02:42:09,980 --> 02:42:11,660
as well as well.
Women's fertility specifically women's 

2921
02:42:11,660 --> 02:42:15,860
ability to smell whether or not she's 
even genetically compatible with the 

2922
02:42:15,860 --> 02:42:15,860
man.
Absolutely.

2923
02:42:15,860 --> 02:42:17,640
And was really freaky.
It's like those lizards,

2924
02:42:17,910 --> 02:42:21,030
how do they know?
No rubbing up against each other.

2925
02:42:22,110 --> 02:42:25,890
So I think I think what to wear.
Deodorant.

2926
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:31,520
A.
I try not to at the moment I'm wearing 

2927
02:42:31,520 --> 02:42:32,400
it because sweat stains would be 
socially.

2928
02:42:32,520 --> 02:42:33,300
Oh,
you're wearing.

2929
02:42:33,340 --> 02:42:35,130
You're wearing anti person.
I guess I am.

2930
02:42:35,131 --> 02:42:40,131
Yeah.
I guess I do important distinction 

2931
02:42:40,131 --> 02:42:40,131
there.
That's dangerous.

2932
02:42:40,131 --> 02:42:41,190
But here this is taking up your poor.
This is a great.

2933
02:42:41,220 --> 02:42:44,490
This is a great example because I 
actually did spend a,

2934
02:42:44,940 --> 02:42:47,010
I don't know if it was a year as an 
experiment,

2935
02:42:47,011 --> 02:42:49,260
not wearing deodorant.
How'd that go?

2936
02:42:49,560 --> 02:42:51,660
Well,
he was already married,

2937
02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:57,390
so a couple of interesting facts.
One,

2938
02:42:57,391 --> 02:43:00,630
it did drive some people crazy.
I'm sure.

2939
02:43:00,750 --> 02:43:02,730
I'm not me though.
Not.

2940
02:43:02,731 --> 02:43:04,650
You didn't drive,
you didn't bother you at all?

2941
02:43:05,730 --> 02:43:10,730
I'm gonna leave all been around people 
we love who at some point we're like 

2942
02:43:10,730 --> 02:43:11,480
take a shower,
but yeah.

2943
02:43:11,530 --> 02:43:11,950
No,
but

2944
02:43:11,980 --> 02:43:16,980
as long as you took a shower.
Well actually the thing is though is 

2945
02:43:16,980 --> 02:43:17,590
shave the armpits thing.
Like if you shave your armpits,

2946
02:43:17,591 --> 02:43:19,390
do you see?
It's the one spot,

2947
02:43:19,391 --> 02:43:24,391
right?
We're not putting deodorant anywhere 

2948
02:43:24,391 --> 02:43:24,391
else on our body.
We're just putting it on the armpits,

2949
02:43:24,391 --> 02:43:26,230
like is it the shaving thing I'll give 
you shave your armpits.

2950
02:43:26,260 --> 02:43:31,260
If you shave your armpits,
you decrease the rate at which it 

2951
02:43:31,260 --> 02:43:33,160
diffuses into the environment.
So it should make a judgment call.

2952
02:43:33,310 --> 02:43:34,510
Well,
but in some sense,

2953
02:43:34,600 --> 02:43:35,950
look,
I don't know which it is.

2954
02:43:35,980 --> 02:43:36,940
Maybe we're being

2955
02:43:37,020 --> 02:43:39,330
wusses right,
and we're being,

2956
02:43:39,331 --> 02:43:44,331
you know,
we've got an industry of I don't know 

2957
02:43:44,331 --> 02:43:45,420
how much they make per year selling us 
these things because we're afraid of our

2958
02:43:45,421 --> 02:43:47,200
own human smell.
Right.

2959
02:43:47,550 --> 02:43:52,550
But there's a huge difference between 
the way somebody smells if they don't 

2960
02:43:53,221 --> 02:43:58,221
have good hygiene and somebody who has 
the luxury of daily showers and doesn't 

2961
02:43:58,561 --> 02:44:03,500
wear shorter and frankly I don't find 
somebody who is taking daily showers and

2962
02:44:03,510 --> 02:44:05,610
isn't wearing deodorant.
I don't find it that off putting.

2963
02:44:05,611 --> 02:44:08,520
And in europe it's considered much less 
a different smell.

2964
02:44:08,580 --> 02:44:12,270
You smell them as opposed to smelling 
right guard or whatever it is.

2965
02:44:12,450 --> 02:44:14,220
Exactly.
And so anyway,

2966
02:44:14,260 --> 02:44:19,260
I,
I have no idea whether if we backed our 

2967
02:44:19,260 --> 02:44:23,840
deodorant and antiperspirant stuff off,
whether it would change who ended up 

2968
02:44:23,840 --> 02:44:27,450
with whom and whether or not marriage is
with a small degree of change,

2969
02:44:27,660 --> 02:44:30,600
but how many other things are there on 
the list that we wouldn't think to name?

2970
02:44:30,660 --> 02:44:33,510
What about makeup into women stopped 
wearing makeup?

2971
02:44:33,720 --> 02:44:36,000
how much would that change?
Who hooks up with who?

2972
02:44:36,060 --> 02:44:37,710
How much would it.
And you know,

2973
02:44:37,711 --> 02:44:42,711
if we.
How much would it change if we actually 

2974
02:44:42,711 --> 02:44:47,000
learned that there's a difference 
between hotness and beauty and we 

2975
02:44:47,000 --> 02:44:51,291
actually allowed little girls to 
recognize that maybe they weren't so 

2976
02:44:52,171 --> 02:44:55,050
interested in being hot because although
it gets you a lot of attention,

2977
02:44:55,051 --> 02:44:57,210
it's a kind of attention.
That's a dead end,

2978
02:44:57,510 --> 02:44:59,070
right?
How much would that change?

2979
02:44:59,071 --> 02:45:02,310
Who ends up with whom?
I mean a lot of who ends up with whom at

2980
02:45:02,311 --> 02:45:07,311
the moment is presumably dictated by 
people having had their attention 

2981
02:45:07,311 --> 02:45:11,001
captured through hotness.
And then there's a question of whether 

2982
02:45:11,001 --> 02:45:13,791
there's anything there to back it up.
So what I want to see for my own kids' 

2983
02:45:15,961 --> 02:45:20,961
sake is I want to see a world in which 
the noise of the way the market 

2984
02:45:22,651 --> 02:45:27,651
influences how we interact with each 
other and the notions that get promoted 

2985
02:45:28,261 --> 02:45:33,261
as sophisticated,
where that noise is reduced so that 

2986
02:45:33,261 --> 02:45:34,590
people can really begin to detect the 
patterns in their life.

2987
02:45:35,010 --> 02:45:37,440
Actually,
this worked for me.

2988
02:45:37,500 --> 02:45:40,110
I dated in this way and this worked for 
me.

2989
02:45:40,200 --> 02:45:42,330
I dated in that way and it didn't work 
for me.

2990
02:45:42,331 --> 02:45:47,331
it wasn't rewarding.
And that begins to tell you something 

2991
02:45:47,331 --> 02:45:47,331
and all I'm saying about my own 
situation.

2992
02:45:47,331 --> 02:45:52,050
Yes,
I'm incredibly lucky to have a 

2993
02:45:52,050 --> 02:45:52,270
relationship that's really rewarding and
you know,

2994
02:45:52,360 --> 02:45:54,780
it's a lifelong bond.
On the other hand,

2995
02:45:55,170 --> 02:45:57,810
it may say something.
We got together early.

2996
02:45:58,500 --> 02:46:02,970
I felt weird about that for a long time.
I felt like it suggested something.

2997
02:46:04,660 --> 02:46:06,510
You hear about people getting together 
in high school and was like,

2998
02:46:06,511 --> 02:46:07,350
oh,
that's cute,

2999
02:46:07,351 --> 02:46:10,690
but you know how,
how well you have chosen in high school.

3000
02:46:10,880 --> 02:46:11,720
Right?
Well,

3001
02:46:11,721 --> 02:46:13,370
I met heather in high school.
We were friends.

3002
02:46:13,371 --> 02:46:16,160
We knew each other pretty well by the 
time we got together.

3003
02:46:16,550 --> 02:46:18,030
And you know,
I was,

3004
02:46:18,050 --> 02:46:23,050
I was a dumb kid in my early twenties at
the point that the relationship began,

3005
02:46:23,091 --> 02:46:27,560
but it had an advantage that I didn't 
necessarily know to think about,

3006
02:46:27,950 --> 02:46:32,720
which is heather and I have spent all of
that time.

3007
02:46:33,150 --> 02:46:38,150
I'm adventuring together and that means 
that instead of looking for the perfect 

3008
02:46:38,150 --> 02:46:39,980
partner who's exactly the right fit for 
you,

3009
02:46:40,340 --> 02:46:45,340
to people who had the right starting 
material sort of grew together into a 

3010
02:46:45,340 --> 02:46:46,360
partnership.
The growing together,

3011
02:46:46,361 --> 02:46:47,520
apart together.
Yeah.

3012
02:46:47,750 --> 02:46:49,070
That'S a,
that's a big part.

3013
02:46:49,071 --> 02:46:52,610
And there's a lot of people that don't 
spend a lot of time with their mates,

3014
02:46:52,870 --> 02:46:54,490
you know,
and you know,

3015
02:46:54,500 --> 02:46:56,840
people grow apart to.
You guys get lucky.

3016
02:46:57,080 --> 02:46:57,860
Yeah,
that's true.

3017
02:46:58,420 --> 02:47:00,290
A lot of friends that are living in 
hell.

3018
02:47:00,980 --> 02:47:01,790
Yeah,
that's terrible.

3019
02:47:02,450 --> 02:47:06,170
It's unfortunately really common.
It's more common than not.

3020
02:47:06,171 --> 02:47:11,171
You guys are the outliers role of 
scientists taking your kids to the 

3021
02:47:11,171 --> 02:47:11,180
jungle.
Well,

3022
02:47:11,720 --> 02:47:13,690
not the most common thing,
but.

3023
02:47:14,080 --> 02:47:15,350
Okay.
Here's the thing.

3024
02:47:15,351 --> 02:47:17,330
I don't know because I've only lived one
life,

3025
02:47:17,360 --> 02:47:22,360
but I think there is a lesson because I 
think that what we did actually was 

3026
02:47:22,400 --> 02:47:27,400
fairly simple,
which was we played it by ear and the 

3027
02:47:27,400 --> 02:47:31,451
stuff that didn't work,
we chucked it and the stuff that did 

3028
02:47:31,451 --> 02:47:32,270
work,
we augmented it and so there are no hard

3029
02:47:32,271 --> 02:47:33,020
and fast rules.

3030
02:47:33,260 --> 02:47:35,780
Yeah.
You're also exceptional people.

3031
02:47:35,930 --> 02:47:40,500
You're both very unusually smart and 
openminded well thanks to each other,

3032
02:47:40,830 --> 02:47:45,830
but we found each other and I think,
I think openminded display important 

3033
02:47:45,830 --> 02:47:47,600
than smart in this case.
I like being able to look at each other.

3034
02:47:48,080 --> 02:47:49,190
Let's compassion.
You know,

3035
02:47:49,191 --> 02:47:51,410
this is true for any interaction,
right?

3036
02:47:51,710 --> 02:47:53,900
Let's.
Can I look at unc,

3037
02:47:53,940 --> 02:47:58,940
you as a human being with real emotions 
and feelings and reality to your 

3038
02:47:58,940 --> 02:48:03,251
experiences as well.
Even if I feel like we disagree 

3039
02:48:03,251 --> 02:48:03,251
completely so even,
you know,

3040
02:48:03,251 --> 02:48:05,120
even when we're at our angriest with 
each other,

3041
02:48:06,500 --> 02:48:11,360
if we can see each other's humanity 
through it and you get through that,

3042
02:48:11,820 --> 02:48:15,780
that is a lesson for every human being 
in all walks of life.

3043
02:48:15,810 --> 02:48:18,150
In any situation,
when you disagree with someone,

3044
02:48:18,390 --> 02:48:21,390
not just your lover,
not just a friend,

3045
02:48:21,450 --> 02:48:23,460
but people that you don't even know,
it's.

3046
02:48:23,461 --> 02:48:27,180
It's very easy to dehumanize someone who
disagrees with you,

3047
02:48:27,630 --> 02:48:29,700
and I think to bring this all back 
around,

3048
02:48:30,030 --> 02:48:35,030
this is a part of the problem with male 
female interaction today is this 

3049
02:48:36,300 --> 02:48:39,960
dehumanization on both sides,
that the men are demons,

3050
02:48:39,961 --> 02:48:41,910
that the woman are this and the men of 
that,

3051
02:48:41,911 --> 02:48:43,180
and it's all this.
You know,

3052
02:48:43,650 --> 02:48:47,610
these rash generalizations in this 
extreme tribalism.

3053
02:48:48,360 --> 02:48:48,900
Well,
yes,

3054
02:48:50,620 --> 02:48:55,620
there is kind of a secret weapon and I.
It's not a secret.

3055
02:48:57,040 --> 02:49:02,040
The secret is heather and I have a whole
second channel on which to navigate,

3056
02:49:03,041 --> 02:49:07,740
which is that we both know the same 
evolutionary story.

3057
02:49:07,920 --> 02:49:09,060
Yeah,
so there's a way,

3058
02:49:09,061 --> 02:49:11,310
you know.
Here's an idea that's important.

3059
02:49:12,120 --> 02:49:16,290
You can very often understand more about
a given human interaction,

3060
02:49:16,291 --> 02:49:20,810
especially a contentious one.
If you turn down the sound right,

3061
02:49:20,820 --> 02:49:23,640
so you can't hear what's being said,
and that sounds wrong,

3062
02:49:24,010 --> 02:49:24,600
right?
Sounds like,

3063
02:49:24,610 --> 02:49:29,610
well,
maybe the most important piece of 

3064
02:49:29,610 --> 02:49:31,671
information you could have is what these
people are saying to each other as 

3065
02:49:31,671 --> 02:49:31,671
they're arguing,
but no,

3066
02:49:31,671 --> 02:49:36,291
that's not how human beings work.
Sometimes the important information is 

3067
02:49:36,291 --> 02:49:40,761
on that vocal channel and sometimes the 
vocal channel is actually almost purely 

3068
02:49:41,071 --> 02:49:42,570
noise.
Right,

3069
02:49:42,840 --> 02:49:45,390
and so if both literally and 
metaphorically,

3070
02:49:46,140 --> 02:49:50,940
but if heather and I both know that,
then there's a part of us that's sort of

3071
02:49:51,030 --> 02:49:52,530
always outside if we.

3072
02:49:52,530 --> 02:49:55,380
I mean we don't fight that much.
It's really pretty rare,

3073
02:49:55,440 --> 02:50:00,440
but when we do,
there's also a part of us that's 

3074
02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:03,740
watching the interaction and knows that 
a certain pattern may have to unfold in 

3075
02:50:06,121 --> 02:50:07,860
order for us to get to the other part of
it.

3076
02:50:08,070 --> 02:50:13,070
Sometimes heather notes that you're 
engaging in theater at some level even 

3077
02:50:13,070 --> 02:50:14,070
though neither of us wants to be.
That's a great way to put it.

3078
02:50:14,220 --> 02:50:17,670
Engaging in couples theater.
It is,

3079
02:50:17,730 --> 02:50:20,000
and it is.
It's actually,

3080
02:50:20,010 --> 02:50:22,310
it's the perfect example of this thing 
like you know,

3081
02:50:22,311 --> 02:50:27,311
you're talking about peterson and go 
into work and wearing makeup and you 

3082
02:50:27,311 --> 02:50:27,480
think,
am I sending sexual signals?

3083
02:50:27,481 --> 02:50:28,410
Will,
gosh,

3084
02:50:28,411 --> 02:50:31,110
we're all involved in weird stuff,
right?

3085
02:50:31,590 --> 02:50:36,590
The idea that you and your mate could 
both be aware that your argument is in 

3086
02:50:36,590 --> 02:50:38,780
some,
in some way theater and that even though

3087
02:50:38,980 --> 02:50:39,720
you might think,
well,

3088
02:50:39,721 --> 02:50:41,380
if it's theater,
we can just skip it now.

3089
02:50:41,500 --> 02:50:46,500
You can't know.
There are things that have to happen in 

3090
02:50:46,500 --> 02:50:49,170
order for you to get to the next act.
And so you know,

3091
02:50:49,560 --> 02:50:54,560
they're like,
I hope I'm not saying something I 

3092
02:50:54,560 --> 02:50:54,560
shouldn't,
but there's a,

3093
02:50:54,560 --> 02:50:56,730
there's a thing I'm not the easiest guy 
to live with.

3094
02:50:56,731 --> 02:51:00,190
I think I'm a very decent person,
but I'm also fine,

3095
02:51:00,290 --> 02:51:05,250
but thank you.
But there's a part of me that's not good

3096
02:51:05,251 --> 02:51:08,610
at certain stuff that makes heather's 
life heart right.

3097
02:51:08,790 --> 02:51:12,390
And that stuff she's good at putting up 
with it to a certain extent.

3098
02:51:12,391 --> 02:51:16,170
And then there are things that will 
cause it to get even to get bad.

3099
02:51:16,680 --> 02:51:21,680
I need to know that that's happened in 
order for us to get past it and she 

3100
02:51:21,901 --> 02:51:23,280
needs to tell me,
hey,

3101
02:51:23,430 --> 02:51:26,090
this isn't the normal level of,
you know,

3102
02:51:26,160 --> 02:51:30,180
I'm not really frustrated considering 
exploding.

3103
02:51:30,430 --> 02:51:31,450
Right.
So.

3104
02:51:31,451 --> 02:51:36,451
But it sound that come the,
the necessity of us being able to 

3105
02:51:36,451 --> 02:51:39,180
exchange that information is there and 
the fact you know,

3106
02:51:39,181 --> 02:51:44,181
it's,
it's so much less charged if we both 

3107
02:51:44,181 --> 02:51:47,630
know that sort of that process has to 
unfold and that is not an infinite 

3108
02:51:47,630 --> 02:51:51,231
process and we will be on the other side
of it once you know she's conveyed,

3109
02:51:51,301 --> 02:51:53,390
which needs to convey and I've let her 
know that I've heard.

3110
02:51:53,520 --> 02:51:55,470
And again,
the more times you've done this,

3111
02:51:55,500 --> 02:51:57,720
the more likely you are confident.
You know what,

3112
02:51:57,721 --> 02:51:58,770
this is going to end up.
Okay,

3113
02:51:58,920 --> 02:52:01,500
this feels awful right now like we are 
fighting in.

3114
02:52:01,501 --> 02:52:05,590
This feels awful and right.
We've done this before and actually this

3115
02:52:05,591 --> 02:52:06,040
proves to

3116
02:52:06,040 --> 02:52:08,470
be necessary because it reset some 
things that you know,

3117
02:52:08,500 --> 02:52:11,110
just every relationship,
no matter if it's romantic or not,

3118
02:52:11,350 --> 02:52:14,360
needs resets on a regular basis.
And so this is,

3119
02:52:14,380 --> 02:52:19,380
this is one way that you consider 
theatrically reset some important 

3120
02:52:19,380 --> 02:52:23,520
points.
This is a great lesson for reasonable 

3121
02:52:23,520 --> 02:52:26,071
people and everybody would aspire to be 
reasonable people loose ended up that we

3122
02:52:27,281 --> 02:52:29,370
just did three hours but just flew right
by it,

3123
02:52:29,371 --> 02:52:30,010
right?
Wow.

3124
02:52:30,220 --> 02:52:32,750
So crazy.
It was really fun.

3125
02:52:32,950 --> 02:52:33,700
Really fun.

3126
02:52:37,550 --> 02:52:38,050
Three hours.