transcripts/en/Joe_Rogan_Experience/srt/q0ffswUVoxA.srt

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Three,
two,

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one,
boom.

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And we're live.
Hello,

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Gary Hydro.
Thanks for coming man.

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Appreciate it.
My pleasure.

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The case against sugar.
Yeah.

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This is a for me.
This is a up.

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I don't know how to put this any other 
way.

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I've,
I've kind of consumed sugar most of my 

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life until the last couple of years and 
I slowly sort of tapered off and about 

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about a year ago,
maybe last February or so.

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I just pretty much cut it all out except
for the occasional occasional dessert 

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here.
They're infinitely better quality of 

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life.
I feel much better.

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I have more energy and then I started 
really getting into it and then I came 

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across your work and um,
what I want to know is first of all,

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how did you get involved in this and how
much resistance have you fixed?

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Okay.
This being the sugarcane,

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this being the whole obesity diet,
nutrition,

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we can get into all of it,
but the sugar one to me is absolutely 

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fascinating when you go down.
I mean,

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if you've seen that sugar movie.
Yeah,

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yeah.
Probably in it I think.

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I think you ought to come onto the 
talking cereal boxes.

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Oh,
okay.

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Right now,
um,

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I will,
I've watched it with my kids.

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I'm,
I made my kids watch it and it's amazing

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when,
you know,

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a six year old watches,
something like that.

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And then they go,
why is sugar in everything?

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You know,
it's funny because my kids lived with 

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this all the time,
right.

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So we had just come back from spending 
the holidays with my grandmother who 

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pumps them up with sugar while we're 
there and there's nothing I can do with 

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it.
Then we'd get back and I'm having them 

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making my boy's dinner.
They're eight and 11 and uh,

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my wife's out and after the dinner,
my eight year old says or weakened 

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desert and my 11 year old goes,
yeah,

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nic,
it's dad,

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man,
are you crazy?

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Wake up son.
Anyway,

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I got into this,
you know,

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I.
okay.

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I was a physics major in college.

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Shows was like hard science and then I 
wasn't any good at.

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I got a c minus and quantum physics and 
my advisor suggested I find another 

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career.
So went into journalism,

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started doing science writing in the 
early eighties because it was the only 

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work I could get.
And then my first book I went to live at

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cern,
the big particle accelerator lab outside

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of Geneva and I was what we would call 
today embedded with the physicists and I

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thought it was going to be following.
I'm making this great discovery,

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which is what the Nobel laureate who ran
the experiment was predicting and 

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instead I spent 10 months watching them 
figure out how they screwed up.

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Okay.
And it was a learning experience in how 

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to do science right.
And I was obsessed with how hard it is 

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to do good science and I had a lot of 
the physicists in the world really 

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didn't like this Nobel laureate,
so they were happy to point out to me 

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how he was screwing up and how he 
screwed up in the past and how he even 

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screwed up the work that he won the 
Nobel prize for.

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Um,
after I came back I thought that was 

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actually paid six and the New York Post,
when my book came out,

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the headline was Aig had over Nobel 
prize and this Nobel laureate who was 

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calling me an asshole in the newspaper 
and I'm 29 years old.

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Nice.
Assume my Jordan,

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you know,
my career over.

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What was he calling you?
An asshole over.

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Well,
because I ended up writing an expo say,

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but what a bad scientist.
He was about the politics of science,

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you know,
I thought I was,

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I went to Stockholm with this guy when 
he won the Nobel prize.

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I mean we got our talks is fitted 
together.

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I was a guest at the Nobel dinner and 
the Nobel banquet and the party that 

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follows,
which is the most fun I've ever had in 

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my life.
Um,

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students,
Stockholm,

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throw a party for the laureates and 
it's,

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back then it was crazy.

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Um,
anyway,

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so he was justifiably pissed off that I 
just wrote what I saw instead of what a 

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great man he thought he was.
And I thought my career was going to be 

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over right.
You're called an asshole.

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And the papers when you were 29 year old
journalists by Nobel laureate,

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but instead everybody I would interview 
in science would say,

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Oh,
you think that guy was bad,

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you should write about this guy.
And I just started covering different 

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aspects and it turns out you could get 
along way in science if you're willing 

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to sort of cut corners.
And then it's not actually cheating,

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it's just you could discover a lot of 
stuff if you're not willing to do the 

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rigorous,
hard,

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critical,
skeptical work to demonstrate that.

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Would you say you have discovered is 
wrong.

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Okay.
So I wrote a book about something called

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Cold Fusion,
which was a great scientific fiasco of 

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the 20th century except for the stuff 
I'm writing about now.

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And some of my friends in the physics 
community said,

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if you're interested in bad science book
was called bad science.

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He said,
you should look at this stuff in public 

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health because it's terrible.
And so I moved into public health 

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beginning with this idea that 
electromagnetic fields from power lines 

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will cause brain cancer,
leukemia and everything.

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I had learned about what you,
how rigorous and meticulous and 

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skeptical and thoughtful you had to do 
to get the right answer and physics.

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The public health people didn't think it
had to do.

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They thought it was kind of a luxury 
because their science is harder and it 

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is kind of harder.
You're dealing with like chronic 

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diseases that happen over decades and 
people and messy systems and you can't 

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measure anything and everything I had 
learned was that if you don't do this 

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stuff,
you get the wrong answer.

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So by the late nineties I had stumbled 
into nutrition research and this is 

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maybe a longer story than you want it.
No,

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I was living here in Venice,
California.

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I was freelancing for the journal 
Science,

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so was what's called a contributing 
correspondent and I needed a paycheck to

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pay my rent.
So I called my editor and I said,

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what do you got?
What kind of story could I turn over 

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quickly?
And he said there was a diet study that 

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was coming out in the New England 
Journal of Medicine in two weeks and 

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they want to do an article about him and
I didn't know is that this diet study 

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had been leaked to science and advance 
and the person who leaked that had given

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them a list of sources to talk to who 
leaks a diet study right,

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to a trial.
And this was a dash diet,

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dietary approaches to stop hypertension,
which is the most today,

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US news and World Report says it's the 
healthiest diet in the world based on,

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you know,
like force studies that did not 

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demonstrate anything.

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Um,
the way you do those stories as a 

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journalist is you interview the 
principal investigator and you ask him 

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who to talk to when he gives you a 
couple of names to talk to who can talk 

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about the study even though it's 
published.

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And then you get three interviews,
which is enough to justify a page in the

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magazine and you get your paycheck.
Um,

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so I interviewed the Pie and then I 
interviewed one of the people on the 

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list of documents that had been leaked 
to science and that was a former 

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president of the American heart 
association,

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and she told me she couldn't talk about 
this study or she'd lose her funding.

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And I said,
come on man,

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this isn't Sanko era.
Soviet Union people don't lose their 

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funding for talking to a journalist 
about a diet study.

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And she refused to talk to me.
I said,

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let's go off the record,
complete confidentiality if I'm going to

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miss a story that you're not telling me 
that's bad,

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couldn't get her to talk.

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And then I call one of the people that 
the Pi told me to talk to and he sounded

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exactly like Walter Matthau on the other
side of the telephone was very weird and

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Walter's starts yelling at me that 
there's no controversy over solid and 

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high blood pressure.
And I'm going.

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But Walter,
I'm not calling about salt and high 

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blood pressure.
I'm calling about this dash diet coming 

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out.
And these keeps going on.

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There's no controversy,
there's no evidence.

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It's all doesn't cause high blood 
pressure.

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So I get off the phone,
I call up my editor,

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I said I'm going to finish this story,
but I had this former Aha presidency.

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She couldn't talk to me and if she loses
her funding.

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And then I had Walter Matthau yelling at
me that um,

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there's no controversy over in the high 
blood pressure.

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There must be a controversy over whether
salt causes high blood pressure.

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Right?
So I'm going to turn this story and pay 

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my rent.
And then I spent the next nine months 

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doing an investigation for science.
I interviewed I think 85 sources for one

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magazine article.
Got paid for like six weeks,

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pissed off my fiance at the time because
she thought she's going to date someone.

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They should have a better sort of,
you know,

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work efficiency ratio.
Um,

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the conclusion was that the only way you
would believe that salt causes high 

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blood pressure from the studies that had
been done to that point was if God told 

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you so perf personally.
So you could ignore all the evidence and

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all the randomized control trials name 
and the observational evidence.

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And just,
but that's what everyone had done.

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Well,
how did this start?

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Because I had heard that before as well.
Everybody's heard that before and I had 

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read a long time ago that that was 
bullshit and that salt is actually an 

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essential mineral and it's important for
your body and it doesn't cause high 

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blood pressure and there's a host of 
other factors should be considered.

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So it was,
yeah,

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that's the thing.
It was kind intuitively.

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It was an interesting idea.
Make biological sense.

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When you consume salt,
you also have to take in water.

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That's why they feed pretzels and you 
know,

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salty peanuts at bars because you want 
to take in liquids so that you can 

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maintain the same sodium concentration 
in your blood because your cells like 

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the,
you know,

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the chemical reactions that drive your 
cells are dependent on the sodium ratio 

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in the cells.
So if you take in more salt,

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you're going to drink more fluid and 
that you're going to have in a more 

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fluid in your circulation.
That's going to increase your blood 

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pressure.
And it does happen in a very short term.

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But the question is this,
a chronic cause of high blood pressure 

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and hypertension and once the 
researchers decided was,

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and these guys are terrible scientists,
I mean,

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I hate to say this,
but in my first book,

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good calories,
bad calories,

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in the epilogue,
I pointed out,

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I say,
you know,

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I never used the word scientist to 
describe any of these people doing 

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research except for a few specific 
examples because they don't really 

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understand what science is and how to do
it.

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And they weren't to their defense,
they just were never taught how to be 

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scientists or physicians and 
nutritionists who had a sloppy 

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scientific training and they thought it 
was easy and you get a hypothesis and 

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you confirm the hypothesis.
And when he didn't confirm it,

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they thought it must be true anyway.
And then you find the data.

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When people talk about Cherry picking,
that means you find that data that does 

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sort of confirm and you ignore the rest.
So anyway,

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that was it.
I wrote this article is called the 

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political science of salt,
you know,

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won some awards.
And while I was doing that,

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uh,
it's Walter Matthau character took 

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credit not just for getting Americans to
eat less salt,

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putting us on this low salt diet.
He took credit for getting us on the low

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fat diet that we were all waiting in the
nineties and I got off the phone with 

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them,
called my editor at science and I said,

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when I'm done writing about salt,
I'm going to write about fat.

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I have no idea what the story is,
but this guy is clearly one of the five 

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were scientists I've ever interviewed in
my life.

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And you know,
everything I learned in my physics 

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period was at bad scientists never get 
the right answer.

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So I spent a year doing an investigation
for the journal Science on dietary fat 

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that paid for about two months.
And it seems to be a trend here.

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Yeah,
it was bad.

223
00:11:17,270 --> 00:11:18,110
No,
it's good.

224
00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:23,780
It's good.
You got to do that to get the right 

225
00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:23,780
answer.
That's.

226
00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:23,780
Yeah.
And that's why so much has journalism is

227
00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:27,330
so shallow is because if you're gonna 
put in the time you get paid for,

228
00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:31,170
it's all you can do as a shallow job.
Nobody can afford to do that.

229
00:11:31,171 --> 00:11:33,840
I actually had corporate jobs that 
allowed me,

230
00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:36,540
you know,
like writing speeches and press releases

231
00:11:36,541 --> 00:11:39,120
for IBM that,
you know,

232
00:11:39,121 --> 00:11:44,121
I really hated doing,
but that paid well and like that was my 

233
00:11:44,121 --> 00:11:45,330
corporate work so I could do the pro 
bono stuff I cared about.

234
00:11:45,810 --> 00:11:46,340
Anyway,
that's.

235
00:11:46,350 --> 00:11:49,110
That story was the same unless God told 
you personally.

236
00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:55,670
So I ended up doing this cover story for
the New York Times magazine called what 

237
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:58,810
if it's all been a big fat lie,
which came out July 2002.

238
00:11:58,811 --> 00:12:03,811
It was probably the most,
one of the top five most controversial 

239
00:12:03,811 --> 00:12:08,700
articles ever ran.
And the idea was I wanted to see what 

240
00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:10,990
caused the obesity epidemic.
That was what I pitched to the editor,

241
00:12:12,850 --> 00:12:15,970
but we had this idea that you get fat 
from eating dietary fat.

242
00:12:15,971 --> 00:12:20,971
That was actually the primary logic 
behind putting the country on low fat 

243
00:12:20,971 --> 00:12:24,721
diets.
They thought it might help heart 

244
00:12:24,721 --> 00:12:26,701
disease,
but they hadn't been able to show it in 

245
00:12:26,701 --> 00:12:28,471
trials,
but they just assumed if we ate less 

246
00:12:28,471 --> 00:12:28,471
fat,
we'd lose weight because fat,

247
00:12:28,471 --> 00:12:33,120
denser calories,
and there was always this competing 

248
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,540
hypothesis that had been buried and 
swept aside and ignored and you know,

249
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:40,600
inhibited which was at the problem is 
the carbohydrates,

250
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:43,390
particularly sugar and refined grains.

251
00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:47,830
And so when I got this cover story,
I got a big book advance.

252
00:12:47,831 --> 00:12:52,831
Finally I could afford to do the book I 
wanted it paid for four years of my 

253
00:12:52,831 --> 00:12:53,650
life.
The book took five.

254
00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:58,060
Again,
same financial issues.

255
00:12:58,061 --> 00:13:03,061
But um,
and I love it because people accused me 

256
00:13:03,061 --> 00:13:05,461
of like,
I was just going to write anything I 

257
00:13:05,461 --> 00:13:05,470
could find for a paycheck.
And I finally got a big paycheck.

258
00:13:05,471 --> 00:13:10,471
And so now one of the ideas there that 
emerged out of my research.

259
00:13:12,071 --> 00:13:15,850
So even when I wrote the 2002 piece,
I thought that we got fat because we ate

260
00:13:15,851 --> 00:13:20,851
too much.
You know there's a line in that article 

261
00:13:20,851 --> 00:13:23,191
piece to it,
of course has caused by consuming too 

262
00:13:23,191 --> 00:13:23,680
many calories and we can more calories 
than we consume.

263
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:28,510
By the time I was done with this book,
I thought that was one of the most inane

264
00:13:28,750 --> 00:13:31,000
scientific ideas that had ever come 
along.

265
00:13:31,001 --> 00:13:36,001
I mean,
it's almost incomprehensible to me even 

266
00:13:36,001 --> 00:13:38,341
though I know exactly the history of the
idea and where it came from and why we 

267
00:13:38,341 --> 00:13:42,301
believe that it's just crazy naive,
so that's the one that I get the 

268
00:13:43,721 --> 00:13:48,721
feedback on because I'm out there saying
so 99 percent of obesity researchers and

269
00:13:49,601 --> 00:13:54,601
nutritionists and all our public health 
policy is based fundamentally on this 

270
00:13:54,601 --> 00:13:59,551
concept that we get because we eat too 
much or too sedentary and what I was 

271
00:14:00,701 --> 00:14:03,220
saying was not only is that naive and 
meaningless,

272
00:14:03,221 --> 00:14:08,221
it's a description.
It's not an explanation and we could go 

273
00:14:08,221 --> 00:14:08,710
into that.
Clearly.

274
00:14:08,711 --> 00:14:13,711
Obesity is a hormonal metabolic defect 
and in fact the best scientists in the 

275
00:14:13,711 --> 00:14:18,031
world prior to World War Two,
the best far and away the best medical 

276
00:14:18,031 --> 00:14:18,520
science was done in Germany and Austria 
in Europe.

277
00:14:18,830 --> 00:14:23,560
The US was a backwater of medical 
science until postwar just,

278
00:14:23,561 --> 00:14:28,060
it was a backwater,
virtually all science and these guys had

279
00:14:28,061 --> 00:14:31,300
concluded that obesity had to be a 
metabolic hormonal defect,

280
00:14:31,930 --> 00:14:34,060
but the American doctors were saying,
Oh man,

281
00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:39,690
the hormonal thing obesity's Ramona was 
an excuse for fat people to not eat in 

282
00:14:39,690 --> 00:14:42,610
moderation and run marathons like a 
saline people do,

283
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:48,390
and what I did is I brought that 
hypothesis sort of advantage with the 

284
00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:53,161
war literally evaporated with the war.
The German Austrian medical community 

285
00:14:53,161 --> 00:14:57,311
evaporated.
We wanted nothing to do with these 

286
00:14:57,311 --> 00:14:58,220
researchers.
The Ivy League universities had policies

287
00:14:58,221 --> 00:15:01,820
in place to keep from being overrun by 
Jewish academicians from Europe,

288
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:07,390
so then physics,
we embrace them because we had bombs to 

289
00:15:07,390 --> 00:15:08,270
build in a cold war to fight,
but medicine and public health,

290
00:15:08,271 --> 00:15:13,271
we wanted nothing to do with them.
So this hypothesis evaporates and 

291
00:15:13,271 --> 00:15:13,271
postwar.

292
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:18,910
You get this creation of basically 
obesity research created Denovo by 

293
00:15:20,001 --> 00:15:25,001
these.
Like the young doctors have no 

294
00:15:25,001 --> 00:15:25,920
scientific training who are leaving,
who hate the German,

295
00:15:25,921 --> 00:15:28,040
so they're not going to pope the German 
literature,

296
00:15:28,041 --> 00:15:33,041
even if they read it and nutritionists 
who do animal research and never even 

297
00:15:33,041 --> 00:15:37,931
studied obese people.
And you get this idea that it's an 

298
00:15:37,931 --> 00:15:37,931
eating.
You know,

299
00:15:37,931 --> 00:15:42,410
it's a calorie overconsumption problem 
by the 19 sixties.

300
00:15:42,471 --> 00:15:47,471
The field is dominated by psychologists 
and psychiatrists who are studying ways 

301
00:15:47,471 --> 00:15:49,850
to get obese people to just stop eating 
so damn much.

302
00:15:50,390 --> 00:15:52,540
They didn't try to make them exercise 
back then.

303
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:54,950
That was kind of torture they would push
later.

304
00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:58,460
So this was the thing I get feedback on.
This is why I'm saying,

305
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,560
you know,
the entire medical nutritional obesity,

306
00:16:03,561 --> 00:16:08,480
diabetes,
dogma is based on just a bad idea.

307
00:16:09,380 --> 00:16:12,750
You know,
a failed paradigm and you know,

308
00:16:12,830 --> 00:16:14,900
who's going to accept that coming from a
journalist.

309
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:17,390
So the answer is either,
you know,

310
00:16:17,391 --> 00:16:22,391
I'm an idiot or I'm self interested and 
I'm only making this up to get a 

311
00:16:22,391 --> 00:16:24,020
paycheck or just wrong.

312
00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:28,000
Do you feel vindicated?
Or like when you see what's going on now

313
00:16:28,030 --> 00:16:32,680
where it's a pretty much common 
knowledge that sugar is terrible for you

314
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:37,860
and that added sugar is a huge factor in
diabetes and hypertension and heart 

315
00:16:38,411 --> 00:16:43,180
disease and obesity and it's pretty much
across the board now.

316
00:16:43,330 --> 00:16:45,180
Did you feel vindicated when you feel 
like,

317
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:50,720
here's the thing that the.
Even though they're public health 

318
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:51,380
organizations that are now saying,
you know,

319
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:55,310
gotta cut back on the sugar and putting 
limits on sugar consumption.

320
00:16:56,270 --> 00:16:58,640
The logic is still that it's just empty 
calories.

321
00:16:58,850 --> 00:17:02,870
That's still the logic by who though 
they public health authorities,

322
00:17:02,871 --> 00:17:04,440
the researchers.
Why?

323
00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:09,860
Why do they lag so far behind?
Because this is fascinating to me 

324
00:17:09,860 --> 00:17:12,651
because I,
I understand that there must be a guy 

325
00:17:12,651 --> 00:17:16,011
like you who does what's kind of 
ridiculous and spending nine months on 

326
00:17:16,011 --> 00:17:20,210
six weeks worth of pay and it does that 
kind of shit because otherwise once an 

327
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:21,660
idea is clearly established and gets 
repeated,

328
00:17:21,661 --> 00:17:24,300
like salt causes hypertension.
I mean God damn it.

329
00:17:24,301 --> 00:17:25,740
If you ask the average person on the 
street,

330
00:17:25,741 --> 00:17:27,630
Hey,
does salt causes high blood pressure?

331
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:28,460
Oh yeah,
they,

332
00:17:28,550 --> 00:17:31,140
they just say it because it's like sort 
of this peripheral idea.

333
00:17:31,141 --> 00:17:33,390
They hear it in the distance,
they don't research it,

334
00:17:33,391 --> 00:17:38,391
they don't really look into it very far 
other than maybe they read something 

335
00:17:38,391 --> 00:17:41,931
somewhere at one point in time and then 
they just decide it's dogma and they 

336
00:17:41,931 --> 00:17:42,480
repeat it.
It's so.

337
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,520
It's incredibly difficult once an idea 
like that gets established in our 

338
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,270
society too to eradicate it.
Right.

339
00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:51,480
But again,
this is the thing,

340
00:17:51,481 --> 00:17:53,580
it's sort of when you live in a 
community,

341
00:17:53,581 --> 00:17:58,581
in an institution where everybody 
believes exactly what you do and so the 

342
00:17:58,581 --> 00:17:59,010
people you respect,
I mean think about it,

343
00:17:59,011 --> 00:18:01,260
the people you respect are the people 
who think like you do,

344
00:18:01,410 --> 00:18:03,990
who agree with you on the important 
points because you think,

345
00:18:03,991 --> 00:18:04,710
oh,
they're smart.

346
00:18:04,711 --> 00:18:09,711
They get it just like I get it.
So institutions sort of collect group 

347
00:18:09,711 --> 00:18:14,631
thing.
It's just a natural emergent phenomenon 

348
00:18:14,631 --> 00:18:15,330
from institutions and now if you look at
the data,

349
00:18:15,331 --> 00:18:17,190
you're somebody like me and you come 
along and you say,

350
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:22,080
I don't really buy this idea so that 
it's just empty calories.

351
00:18:22,081 --> 00:18:24,450
So I'm going to look at the data and see
what it says,

352
00:18:24,451 --> 00:18:29,451
and now you try to convince your friends
that they're wrong and now you're the 

353
00:18:29,451 --> 00:18:31,310
heretic and you're the one who's saying,
you know,

354
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,320
you're getting in arguments with people 
and they make people uncomfortable 

355
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:37,830
because you're trying to get them to 
change their minds about thumps and they

356
00:18:37,831 --> 00:18:40,610
all believe and they've all been,
you know,

357
00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:42,570
they're successful,
they're promoted,

358
00:18:42,571 --> 00:18:47,571
they're leaders in their field because 
they believed this and now you're 

359
00:18:47,881 --> 00:18:52,090
telling them that and people do it,
but the,

360
00:18:52,091 --> 00:18:57,091
the,
this just keeps going and going and 

361
00:18:57,091 --> 00:18:57,091
going.

362
00:18:57,091 --> 00:18:57,091
And even to the point,
I mean,

363
00:18:57,091 --> 00:19:01,161
just when my sugar book came out,
there was a book called the secret life 

364
00:19:01,161 --> 00:19:05,121
of fat written by a phd and it's,
it's as though everything I've done in 

365
00:19:06,301 --> 00:19:10,500
the past 15 years just who's never done.
Like somehow she managed to do an entire

366
00:19:10,501 --> 00:19:13,440
book on dietary fat where if anyone said
to her,

367
00:19:13,441 --> 00:19:15,720
talk to Tobbs,
even if he's wrong,

368
00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:18,350
his ideas are worth hearing because 
they're,

369
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,720
they're provocative and interesting.
I'm not so sure he's wrong.

370
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:27,230
She decided not to do it.
So it sort of do you have the two was 

371
00:19:27,230 --> 00:19:30,090
her conclusion and effectively it's all,
you know,

372
00:19:30,091 --> 00:19:35,091
again,
it all comes back effectively to energy 

373
00:19:35,091 --> 00:19:37,371
balance.
You could talk about the two 

374
00:19:37,371 --> 00:19:37,371
overconsumption.
Um,

375
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,100
it's just,
this is what dogmas do.

376
00:19:41,101 --> 00:19:41,900
They just take,
they,

377
00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:46,970
they reproduce themselves,
they continue to grow there like tumors 

378
00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:47,010
for that fact,
and they,

379
00:19:47,011 --> 00:19:52,011
they,
they basically fight off all challenges 

380
00:19:52,011 --> 00:19:52,011
they absorb around them.

381
00:19:52,011 --> 00:19:54,750
You know,
so somebody starts saying it's something

382
00:19:54,751 --> 00:19:55,560
else.
Eventually,

383
00:19:55,561 --> 00:19:57,790
ideally everything changes.
So we're,

384
00:19:57,910 --> 00:19:59,820
we're definitely winning the sugar 
battle.

385
00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:04,940
So in sugar,
even though that the official word is 

386
00:20:04,940 --> 00:20:07,521
it's empty calories would just have to 
consume less because they have this 

387
00:20:07,521 --> 00:20:10,350
dogma that obesity is caused by 
consuming too many calories.

388
00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:15,480
So the way that a food influences your 
body mass is through its caloric content

389
00:20:15,481 --> 00:20:18,750
or how much of those calories you digest
and absorb.

390
00:20:18,751 --> 00:20:23,460
Because if it's got fiber,
Yo excrete some and that's the,

391
00:20:23,461 --> 00:20:28,461
that's the wisdom of a calorie is a 
calorie than the worst you could say 

392
00:20:28,461 --> 00:20:29,520
about sugar is that it's empty calories.
It's got no vitamins and minerals,

393
00:20:29,521 --> 00:20:34,521
micronutrients attached.
And so we consume too much of it and 

394
00:20:34,521 --> 00:20:35,940
that people say it's the low hanging 
fruit,

395
00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:41,330
so it's not that it's uniquely toxic 
because of it's uniquely toxic if it 

396
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:45,141
actually causes disease and we can talk 
about clearly what I'm saying it causes 

397
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,690
than a calorie isn't a calorie.
When you started doing this research and

398
00:20:49,691 --> 00:20:53,630
you started writing this book,
the case against sugar w,

399
00:20:53,630 --> 00:20:58,630
W,
when this was all unfolding in front of 

400
00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:58,630
you,
will you,

401
00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:58,630
will you shocked.
I mean,

402
00:20:58,630 --> 00:21:00,550
is this something that you were where 
you were saying,

403
00:21:00,551 --> 00:21:05,551
how am I a guy who got a c plus c minus?
I tried to pump you up.

404
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:09,960
I mean,
how,

405
00:21:09,961 --> 00:21:12,010
how am I the guy who's figuring this 
out?

406
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,660
How is this?
Okay?

407
00:21:13,661 --> 00:21:16,680
So I understood why,
but it is weird because again,

408
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:17,420
I,
you know,

409
00:21:17,470 --> 00:21:22,470
sometimes I was in Washington,
my book tour and I had dinner with the 

410
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:26,011
former chief science medical science and
medical officer with the American 

411
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:30,310
Diabetes Association.
So very influential,

412
00:21:30,311 --> 00:21:35,311
high ranking successful man.
He's completely convinced that I'm 

413
00:21:35,311 --> 00:21:35,311
wrong.
And I said,

414
00:21:35,311 --> 00:21:39,940
why you believe this thing that obesity 
is caused by eating too much and you 

415
00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:43,801
have no idea why you believe it.
So I can tell you exactly the history of

416
00:21:43,871 --> 00:21:48,871
that belief.
Just like if we were talking about 

417
00:21:48,871 --> 00:21:49,240
relativity,
we can go back to Einstein and you would

418
00:21:49,241 --> 00:21:51,940
know about Einstein and even if we were 
talking quantum physics,

419
00:21:51,941 --> 00:21:56,941
we'd go back to Isenberg and trodden 
juror and bore and p and you'd know 

420
00:21:56,941 --> 00:22:01,231
about them.
But this belief that you're 

421
00:22:01,231 --> 00:22:01,231
fundamentally arguing is right.

422
00:22:01,231 --> 00:22:01,780
You don't understand where it comes 
from.

423
00:22:01,781 --> 00:22:04,360
And I can tell you that and I'm going to
give you the documents.

424
00:22:04,361 --> 00:22:07,210
I'm going to give you the papers where 
it out competes,

425
00:22:07,211 --> 00:22:12,211
the hormonal metabolic idea,
and I'm going to give you the competing 

426
00:22:12,211 --> 00:22:15,121
hypothesis you didn't even know existed 
until you and I talked.

427
00:22:15,131 --> 00:22:19,480
You started reading my stuff and it has 
zero influence on how this guy thinks.

428
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:21,100
He's just.
He's so convinced these.

429
00:22:21,101 --> 00:22:22,720
Right?
So that's terrifying.

430
00:22:22,820 --> 00:22:27,820
That's terrifying.
When someone has that kind of influence 

431
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:27,820
over the American people.
Well,

432
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:30,280
and this is a thing you want somebody 
who does at least say Jesus,

433
00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:31,690
you know,
I never thought of that.

434
00:22:31,691 --> 00:22:35,080
Let me at least have them.
Let me read these and get back to you is

435
00:22:35,081 --> 00:22:36,430
what you want them to do.
You want to.

436
00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:41,490
The problem of course is that if he 
agrees to this and then he agrees that 

437
00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:45,211
you're correct,
everything that he's been saying up 

438
00:22:45,211 --> 00:22:45,211
until now has been bullshit and he's 
been misleading people.

439
00:22:45,211 --> 00:22:48,310
He has to apologize history as well.
And then once you do that,

440
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,370
you lose your credit.
Like ideally and science here,

441
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:52,880
you know,
the best scientists,

442
00:22:52,890 --> 00:22:53,560
the ones who say,
you know,

443
00:22:53,561 --> 00:22:54,560
I was just wrong,
right?

444
00:22:55,060 --> 00:23:00,060
And then,
but how they were actually when I was 

445
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:03,691
growing up,
the estimate was five percent of the 

446
00:23:03,691 --> 00:23:06,031
scientific community actually does good 
science and the other 95 percent are 

447
00:23:06,031 --> 00:23:07,600
sort of the chaff out of which you got 
to get the wheat.

448
00:23:08,260 --> 00:23:10,480
But um,
yeah,

449
00:23:10,481 --> 00:23:11,950
I mean it's a problem.
I used to joke,

450
00:23:11,951 --> 00:23:15,740
imagine the American Heart Association 
writing the press release to say like,

451
00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:18,580
we were wrong about putting everybody on
a low fat diet.

452
00:23:18,610 --> 00:23:23,610
And it was a mistake and we're sorry,
and we apologize and maybe we killed 

453
00:23:23,891 --> 00:23:28,060
some of your relatives prematurely.
Maybe the reason you're fat and diabetic

454
00:23:28,061 --> 00:23:31,570
now is because of our advice,
but we got to right now,

455
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:32,710
they won't do it.

456
00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:35,130
He can't do it.
That's public health wreck.

457
00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:37,900
It's just they can't do it.
It's an untenable.

458
00:23:37,901 --> 00:23:42,901
I mean,
I'll say the same thing if I'm wrong in 

459
00:23:42,901 --> 00:23:46,081
my book.
I used to have this argument with my 

460
00:23:46,081 --> 00:23:46,160
cofounder of this nutrition science 
initiative,

461
00:23:46,161 --> 00:23:51,161
this not for profit.
And I'd say you don't understand if I'm 

462
00:23:51,161 --> 00:23:51,290
wrong and the major arguments in this 
book,

463
00:23:51,291 --> 00:23:54,330
I mean clearly I'm going to be wrong.
And some of the minor ones and you know,

464
00:23:54,410 --> 00:23:59,410
chip away here and there are bad 
scholarship that I should have tripled 

465
00:23:59,410 --> 00:23:59,750
checked.
But if I'm wrong in the major arguments,

466
00:24:00,230 --> 00:24:03,920
I need a new line of work because I can 
trust my judgment.

467
00:24:04,220 --> 00:24:08,330
And everything I do as an investigative 
journalist is dependent on me being able

468
00:24:08,331 --> 00:24:10,550
to trust my judgment.
And if I'm wrong about this,

469
00:24:10,551 --> 00:24:13,910
like if I'm wrong about energy balance,
I got to go sell shoes.

470
00:24:14,650 --> 00:24:16,130
You know,
there's no way around it,

471
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:16,880
but this is.

472
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:23,760
I lost track.
What were we saying?

473
00:24:23,761 --> 00:24:26,410
What was the question?
I talked too much.

474
00:24:28,050 --> 00:24:31,020
Well,
I was asking you first of all,

475
00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:36,050
what is it like to have this 
understanding that all of what's being 

476
00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:39,390
told to the American people is wrong and
then you having this conversation.

477
00:24:39,391 --> 00:24:41,070
So how do I,
how do I do it?

478
00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:42,050
How do I do?
Am I getting

479
00:24:42,050 --> 00:24:47,050
this?
So let me tell you why I was able to do 

480
00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:47,050
what.
And again,

481
00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:49,550
I was the first person who ever did.
It's just that simple.

482
00:24:49,551 --> 00:24:53,120
No one had ever done before,
but it was timing.

483
00:24:53,121 --> 00:24:58,121
First of all,
I'm an obsessive research or is 145 

484
00:24:58,461 --> 00:25:01,580
people I interviewed for the fat story 
for one magazine Article.

485
00:25:01,581 --> 00:25:06,581
I just keep asking questions and probing
and probing until every ism like 

486
00:25:06,581 --> 00:25:07,430
writing.
So it's a great research.

487
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:11,720
It's a procrastination tool,
but when I started this in 2002,

488
00:25:11,721 --> 00:25:16,721
when I got the money to do the book,
the Internet had come along and the 

489
00:25:16,721 --> 00:25:19,610
Internet made it possible to find every 
single primary source.

490
00:25:19,611 --> 00:25:21,740
Going back to the 19th century,
like now,

491
00:25:21,741 --> 00:25:25,550
you could almost download them,
but back then I had researchers,

492
00:25:25,551 --> 00:25:27,860
young students in in Boston,
New York,

493
00:25:27,861 --> 00:25:29,840
La,
whose only job was.

494
00:25:29,841 --> 00:25:34,841
They'd get an email from me with 50 
citations and then they'd go to the 

495
00:25:34,841 --> 00:25:39,251
library and have to find every,
all 50 in xerox them and then ship them 

496
00:25:39,251 --> 00:25:40,480
back to me sometimes entire books from 
like,

497
00:25:40,780 --> 00:25:41,930
you know,
19,

498
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,960
17 diabetes textbook that I couldn't 
find or I couldn't buy and bookstores 

499
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,560
had put their used bookstores,
put their catalogs online so you could 

500
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,180
find all the books and you know,
some 19,

501
00:25:56,181 --> 00:25:59,090
47 obesity conference.

502
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,540
The library that has it doesn't see any 
purpose for that anymore.

503
00:26:02,541 --> 00:26:07,541
So they basically give it to the local 
bookstore and you can buy it for seven 

504
00:26:07,541 --> 00:26:08,450
bucks.
So I was able to recreate the history of

505
00:26:08,451 --> 00:26:13,451
obesity research from conference 
proceedings were the only people doing 

506
00:26:14,631 --> 00:26:19,631
research in the field would show up and 
they would present their findings and 

507
00:26:19,631 --> 00:26:23,741
then they would do a proceedings of the 
findings and I could recreate all the 

508
00:26:23,741 --> 00:26:27,671
thinking in the field and nobody had 
ever bothered to do it before and it's 

509
00:26:27,671 --> 00:26:30,761
kind of if they were good scientists,
they would have because they would have 

510
00:26:31,070 --> 00:26:36,070
been obsessed with where their beliefs 
came from and they would have been 

511
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:39,551
questioning them and one of the things 
they would have done is gone back to do 

512
00:26:39,551 --> 00:26:42,941
all this to see if some assumption they 
believe is true is really based on fact.

513
00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:48,710
But again,
they didn't really know what science 

514
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:49,380
was.
They weren't all that curious is one way

515
00:26:49,381 --> 00:26:52,080
to put it.
That's so terrifying.

516
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,940
It is.
It's so terrifying.

517
00:26:53,941 --> 00:26:58,020
When you know you,
you think of what people.

518
00:26:58,110 --> 00:27:00,650
Most people are busy.
They work all day.

519
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,190
They have families,
they have jobs,

520
00:27:02,191 --> 00:27:07,191
they have obligations.
They don't have the time to do the 

521
00:27:07,191 --> 00:27:09,441
research that you did about diet and 
come to these shocking conclusions 

522
00:27:09,441 --> 00:27:09,810
themselves.
It's not going to happen,

523
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,840
but then they rely on the people like 
this guy from the diabetes association 

524
00:27:15,391 --> 00:27:20,391
that's supposed to be telling you the 
truth and looking at the truth and he 

525
00:27:20,391 --> 00:27:20,670
doesn't want to do it because it makes 
them look like an asshole.

526
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,260
Well,
and you will also rely on,

527
00:27:22,261 --> 00:27:27,261
I mean these are so they read the review
articles and the reviewers and the 

528
00:27:27,261 --> 00:27:29,070
editors of the journals want to get 
influential review articles,

529
00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:34,730
so they ask influential people in the 
field to do the review articles and 

530
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:35,940
those people are very busy,
but they're going to do with and they're

531
00:27:35,941 --> 00:27:36,220
gonna.

532
00:27:36,270 --> 00:27:39,090
Basically.
They became influential by believing the

533
00:27:39,091 --> 00:27:42,450
conventional wisdom and propagating the 
conventional wisdom.

534
00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:45,510
When you have committees do 
investigations,

535
00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:50,810
so every five years you get the dietary,
the Usta puts together a committee to 

536
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:53,370
reassess the dietary guidelines that 
they give out.

537
00:27:53,910 --> 00:27:58,910
So the way the committees are formed,
they usta picks a very influential 

538
00:27:58,910 --> 00:27:59,760
person.
The most influential.

539
00:27:59,761 --> 00:28:04,761
They get to be the head of the committee
and that's somebody who's believed the 

540
00:28:04,761 --> 00:28:05,310
conventional wisdom and propagate it 
their whole life.

541
00:28:05,311 --> 00:28:10,200
That's how they became influential and 
then person picks people they respect to

542
00:28:10,201 --> 00:28:12,540
be on the committee and of course the 
people they respect,

543
00:28:12,570 --> 00:28:15,720
the people believe what they believe 
because they're the ones who seem smart.

544
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:19,170
They're not the heretics,
they're the believers.

545
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,380
So you end up with a.
You start out just with a natural quest.

546
00:28:22,381 --> 00:28:27,381
We want to know if the guidelines are 
correct and through this completely 

547
00:28:27,381 --> 00:28:30,741
natural human process,
you end up staffing the guy creating a 

548
00:28:30,741 --> 00:28:34,371
committee that's going to recapitulate 
the conventional wisdom almost 100 

549
00:28:34,371 --> 00:28:36,900
percent and it's just the way things 
happen.

550
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:41,900
So you need people like me to come 
across every once in a while,

551
00:28:42,151 --> 00:28:45,030
assuming I can write better when the 
people like me are right.

552
00:28:45,031 --> 00:28:50,031
Then when they're wrong,
but you're going to get both types and 

553
00:28:50,031 --> 00:28:50,031
we got to come along.
We have to have the persistence,

554
00:28:50,210 --> 00:28:55,210
you know,
that basically just keep doing what we 

555
00:28:55,210 --> 00:28:55,590
do.
I was lucky that I also had this podium,

556
00:28:55,591 --> 00:28:59,310
the New York Times magazine editors 
trusted me and liked my work.

557
00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:04,910
The science editors trusted me and 
thought I would be really good so I 

558
00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:06,000
could get an influential publications.
I didn't have to,

559
00:29:06,750 --> 00:29:11,750
you know,
published to a blog and try to win 

560
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:11,750
people over.

561
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:17,900
But from their perspective,
I mean it's just what do you do with 

562
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:18,420
someone like me?
And I argued,

563
00:29:18,421 --> 00:29:21,030
look,
I've done this research.

564
00:29:21,031 --> 00:29:22,320
You haven't.
I mean,

565
00:29:22,321 --> 00:29:23,970
another way to think about it,
I went,

566
00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:25,200
I said,
look,

567
00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:30,230
you know,
we've got these obesity and diabetes 

568
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:30,230
epidemics worldwide.
I mean,

569
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:31,920
there should be horrifying to people.
Okay.

570
00:29:31,921 --> 00:29:33,930
I'm in fairly recent.
Well,

571
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,270
in terms of human history,
in terms of human history,

572
00:29:36,271 --> 00:29:41,271
so one of the game,
one of the things I did in the case 

573
00:29:41,271 --> 00:29:43,461
against sugar is I went back to find the
very beginnings of the epidemic in the 

574
00:29:43,461 --> 00:29:44,770
United States because if you got an 
epidemic,

575
00:29:44,771 --> 00:29:47,080
like if we had the Zika epidemic,
Ebola,

576
00:29:47,081 --> 00:29:49,240
what do you do?
You're going to try to figure out what's

577
00:29:49,241 --> 00:29:54,241
causing a bola by looking at the 
patients who are getting off the 

578
00:29:54,241 --> 00:29:55,600
airplane and Houston are showing up in 
the hospital in New Jersey.

579
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,600
You go back to Africa where it's densest
and where it started and you could 

580
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,861
follow it to whatever animal got bit by 
whatever insect and whatever cave and 

581
00:30:04,931 --> 00:30:08,020
that's a natural process of 
understanding an epidemic.

582
00:30:08,530 --> 00:30:11,630
So I go back here and you can go back to
the,

583
00:30:11,730 --> 00:30:15,450
the 19th century and there are hospitals
in the United States,

584
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:18,820
the date to pre 18,
50 or 18,

585
00:30:18,821 --> 00:30:21,880
64 in the case of Philadelphia Hospital 
in Pennsylvania.

586
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:27,210
And that their records anyway,
go there and you can ask the archivist 

587
00:30:27,210 --> 00:30:31,800
to go back.
They still have their case records from 

588
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,931
the 19th century and you can have the 
archivist pull up the case records and 

589
00:30:34,691 --> 00:30:39,691
they will tell you how many cases of 
diabetes were diagnosed in the 

590
00:30:39,691 --> 00:30:40,640
hospitals.
And you know,

591
00:30:42,110 --> 00:30:44,980
any year from like in mass general 
hospital in Boston.

592
00:30:44,981 --> 00:30:46,810
The record starting in 18,
24,

593
00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:48,130
um,
today,

594
00:30:48,131 --> 00:30:50,620
one in 11 American diabetic.

595
00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:55,650
Okay.
And there are some populations like 

596
00:30:55,650 --> 00:30:57,070
native American populations where one in
two adults are diabetic.

597
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,040
Jesus Christ in Boston,
mass general hospital,

598
00:31:00,041 --> 00:31:01,720
that leading hospital in the country and
the,

599
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,840
in Massachusetts in the 19th century.
There were year after year after year 

600
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,740
were hit,
they had zero cases of diabetes and this

601
00:31:08,741 --> 00:31:11,290
was a terrible disease.
Without insulin,

602
00:31:11,291 --> 00:31:14,290
it's not a pleasure with it,
but before insulin was discovered,

603
00:31:14,291 --> 00:31:16,630
I mean you go blind,
kidney failure,

604
00:31:16,631 --> 00:31:18,040
gangrene,
amputation.

605
00:31:18,041 --> 00:31:23,041
So it's not a difficult diagnosis.
Now there are the reasons to explain the

606
00:31:23,411 --> 00:31:24,340
absence.
I mean,

607
00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:29,850
you know,
the only people showed up in hospitals 

608
00:31:29,850 --> 00:31:32,700
back in the 19th century were poor 
people and poor people eat a lot less 

609
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:33,460
sugar than rich people.
Wow.

610
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,520
So enrich people got their own private 
doctor so they might not have shown up 

611
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,200
in the diabetes in the medical record.
So you can,

612
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:43,960
you got to always be skeptical of what 
you think you're learning because that's

613
00:31:43,961 --> 00:31:45,040
what science is.

614
00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:50,850
But you know,
the point I'm making is I went through 

615
00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:54,301
the effort to do this one way or the 
other and that gives me a certain 

616
00:31:54,301 --> 00:31:56,350
advantage that they don't have.
And if they're good scientists,

617
00:31:56,351 --> 00:31:59,980
regardless of what they believe,
they'll say to themselves,

618
00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:01,150
Geez,
you know,

619
00:32:01,151 --> 00:32:03,010
I never thought of this.
I never did that.

620
00:32:03,011 --> 00:32:07,000
I can think of these tabs is wrong,
but maybe I should look into it.

621
00:32:07,001 --> 00:32:12,001
And where did it all start?
So in the u s it starts again in the 

622
00:32:12,001 --> 00:32:15,361
second half of the 18 19th century and 
it starts coincidentally with an 

623
00:32:15,851 --> 00:32:20,851
explosion and sugar consumption,
not just in how much sugar we're 

624
00:32:20,851 --> 00:32:21,730
consuming,
but who's consuming it,

625
00:32:21,731 --> 00:32:26,500
which is what's fascinating and scary.
So prior go back,

626
00:32:26,501 --> 00:32:28,630
say 200 years,
you know,

627
00:32:28,631 --> 00:32:29,630
18,
10,

628
00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:30,600
18,
15,

629
00:32:30,601 --> 00:32:35,140
we were probably getting about five 
pounds of sugar per capita in the United

630
00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:35,140
States.

631
00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:40,140
So that's about five pounds over a 
period of a year per person per year.

632
00:32:40,641 --> 00:32:43,280
So that's the equivalent of,
about the sugar,

633
00:32:43,281 --> 00:32:48,281
a one Coca Cola,
12 ounce cokes worth of sugar every six 

634
00:32:48,281 --> 00:32:49,820
days.
And it was the head of the hilarious.

635
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,960
It's not like it's frightening because 
it's expensive back then,

636
00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:55,970
right?
The attitude back then,

637
00:32:56,030 --> 00:32:57,350
um,
you know,

638
00:32:57,351 --> 00:32:58,710
they would,
they would,

639
00:32:58,940 --> 00:33:02,120
well they desert courses hadn't really 
been invented yet.

640
00:33:02,420 --> 00:33:03,560
Really know.
I mean,

641
00:33:03,561 --> 00:33:05,210
again,
the wealthy would have dessert,

642
00:33:05,211 --> 00:33:10,211
so the wealthy and the wealthy are the 
ones who would get diabetes and obesity 

643
00:33:10,611 --> 00:33:13,070
and gout back then.
Um,

644
00:33:13,071 --> 00:33:18,071
so sugar has this curve where it goes 
from being very rare and just sort of 

645
00:33:18,071 --> 00:33:21,551
the luxury of royalty to the wealthy are
using it.

646
00:33:22,611 --> 00:33:27,611
And then finally with the beginning of 
the industrial revolution and a late 

647
00:33:28,940 --> 00:33:33,940
18th century,
and then refining processes or improved 

648
00:33:33,940 --> 00:33:35,120
and sugar starts to get cheaper.

649
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,700
And then during the Napoleonic wars,
like 18,

650
00:33:37,701 --> 00:33:40,620
12,
when France has cut from the,

651
00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:44,120
from their sugar supply,
by the English blockades,

652
00:33:44,121 --> 00:33:45,440
Napoleon says,
look,

653
00:33:45,441 --> 00:33:50,441
we got to figure out how to create our 
own sugar in this clever Frenchmen and 

654
00:33:50,441 --> 00:33:51,710
figures out how to get sugar from sugar 
beets.

655
00:33:52,310 --> 00:33:55,850
And the beet sugar industry takes off 
around 1850.

656
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,880
Um,
and then with the beet sugar and street 

657
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:01,400
and sugar in the northern hemisphere and
the temperate climates,

658
00:34:01,401 --> 00:34:05,660
and you could also grow sugar cane and 
it's only in tropical climates.

659
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,340
So now sugar prices started to plummet.
Meanwhile,

660
00:34:11,330 --> 00:34:13,790
you think about all the ways we consume 
sugar today.

661
00:34:13,791 --> 00:34:15,290
So candy,
soft drinks,

662
00:34:15,291 --> 00:34:16,460
ice cream,
chocolate.

663
00:34:17,790 --> 00:34:20,330
The low fat desserts,
low fat milk,

664
00:34:20,331 --> 00:34:23,780
low fat yogurt.
None of that existed until 1840.

665
00:34:23,830 --> 00:34:26,510
So 1840.
Is He the start of the candy industry?

666
00:34:26,930 --> 00:34:30,810
They started the chocolate industry,
the lint brothers and Switzerland figure

667
00:34:30,811 --> 00:34:32,420
out how to make chocolate bars.

668
00:34:32,450 --> 00:34:37,450
They're still,
you can still buy Lindt chocolate today 

669
00:34:37,450 --> 00:34:37,520
and it's pretty good actually.
Um,

670
00:34:37,580 --> 00:34:42,580
ice cream industry starts in the 1840 
[inaudible] soft drinks starting the 18 

671
00:34:42,580 --> 00:34:45,560
seventies with Dr Pepper than Coca Cola 
than Pepsico.

672
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:48,860
Dr Pepper was first Dr.
Pepper was first.

673
00:34:48,890 --> 00:34:49,370
Oh,
weird.

674
00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:51,980
Yeah,
that's like an afterthought.

675
00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:52,670
Yeah.
Yeah,

676
00:34:52,671 --> 00:34:53,380
I know.
Well,

677
00:34:53,381 --> 00:34:57,230
I didn't have the marketing budgets of 
the Coca Cola people.

678
00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:02,820
Um,
so sugar starts becoming like women are 

679
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:05,240
targeted as cold as you know,
because it's now cheap enough.

680
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:10,270
So the men get their alcohol and their 
cigarettes and the women get sugar and 

681
00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:11,960
the kids get sugar.
So the first time in history,

682
00:35:11,961 --> 00:35:16,961
suddenly we have all these industries 
created to basically target children as 

683
00:35:16,961 --> 00:35:18,830
customers.
If you think about it,

684
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:23,930
nobody's drinking cold drinks at home.
So refrigeration,

685
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,200
refrigeration until the 19 thirties and 
no vending machines until the 19 

686
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,400
thirties.
I love this because I'm a science guy,

687
00:35:31,401 --> 00:35:36,401
but in doing my books,
you have to become a historian and you 

688
00:35:36,401 --> 00:35:36,401
just don't think about this stuff.

689
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,620
So with the vending machines and the 
refrigerators,

690
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:43,950
suddenly Coca Cola and Pepsico and these
start targeting,

691
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:49,250
you know,
you start getting a six packs and the 

692
00:35:49,250 --> 00:35:53,120
cartons,
cases of sodas and big bottles of soda 

693
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,661
that you could take home,
put in your refrigerator and drink all 

694
00:35:56,661 --> 00:35:56,661
day long,
couldn't do it before that,

695
00:35:56,661 --> 00:35:59,040
couldn't get ice cubes easily before 
that you couldn't even,

696
00:35:59,450 --> 00:36:01,080
you know,
quote down in the summer,

697
00:36:01,340 --> 00:36:06,300
um,
fruit juices come in in the 19 thirties,

698
00:36:06,301 --> 00:36:09,480
a California orange growers.
That's a big one,

699
00:36:09,481 --> 00:36:14,481
right?
Because that's one of the people think 

700
00:36:14,481 --> 00:36:14,481
is totally innocuous and actually 
healthy.

701
00:36:14,481 --> 00:36:14,970
Yeah,
because it's got all that vitamin C,

702
00:36:14,971 --> 00:36:19,971
which is explaining to people right now 
that if you're drinking a big glass of 

703
00:36:19,971 --> 00:36:23,181
orange juice,
you might as well be drinking a pepsi 

704
00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:23,181
effectively.
That's what I believe.

705
00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:27,201
So those are the two b.
You got these complete putting 

706
00:36:27,201 --> 00:36:27,201
nutritional paradigms.

707
00:36:27,201 --> 00:36:28,040
One says if it's got vitamins and 
minerals in a telephone,

708
00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:31,590
it's a pepsi with vitamins and minerals.
It's a pepsi with vitamins and minerals,

709
00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:36,810
take a vitamin pill and then drink a 
pepsi and it's the same goddamn 

710
00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:36,810
effectively.
Yeah,

711
00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:38,660
it's so crazy to me.
I always thought like,

712
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,650
what's fresh squeezed?
It's got Paul Pinot.

713
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,520
Well,
this is when.

714
00:36:41,540 --> 00:36:46,540
So the California Orange Growers Forum 
sunkist that was a consortium of 

715
00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:47,340
California.
They had all these extra oranges,

716
00:36:47,341 --> 00:36:52,341
they couldn't sell at oranges are all 
come and you coming along in one season.

717
00:36:52,801 --> 00:36:55,260
So back then without refrigeration and 
cars,

718
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:58,350
he could keep fruits kind of alive for 
like a year.

719
00:36:58,351 --> 00:36:59,910
By freezing them,
you know,

720
00:36:59,911 --> 00:37:01,800
you had all these extra oranges you 
couldn't sell.

721
00:37:01,801 --> 00:37:06,750
So they said let's get people to turn 
into orange juice and we'll advertise at

722
00:37:06,751 --> 00:37:11,060
the vitamin C is good for the new 
nutrition of the 19 twenties in 1930.

723
00:37:11,070 --> 00:37:16,070
It was all about vitamin deficiency 
diseases and so scurvy is caused by the 

724
00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:19,240
absence of vitamin C and Barry Barry by 
vitamin B and that,

725
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,280
that was the big news.
So the orange growers started pushing 

726
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:24,660
orange juice sawdust because it with 
vitamin C content.

727
00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:30,380
So now we're drinking fruit juices for 
breakfast everyday and then post World 

728
00:37:30,380 --> 00:37:33,180
War Two concentrates are created.
That was actually a defense,

729
00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:38,420
you know,
World War II program to try and figure 

730
00:37:38,420 --> 00:37:40,911
out how to create foods that soldiers 
could take into battle and get their 

731
00:37:40,911 --> 00:37:43,770
vitamins from it.
So that comes along.

732
00:37:43,771 --> 00:37:48,771
And then the last one is sugary cereals.
So the scenario in the street was 

733
00:37:48,771 --> 00:37:51,660
created by um,
compost and Kellogg who are health nuts.

734
00:37:51,661 --> 00:37:54,510
They ran sanatoriums and Minnesota,
right?

735
00:37:55,050 --> 00:37:59,430
And they knew their health nutritionist 
didn't want to put sugar in anything.

736
00:37:59,431 --> 00:38:01,540
They had some huge fights over this.
Um,

737
00:38:03,330 --> 00:38:07,950
but 19,
48 post release sugar crisps some.

738
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:09,250
And it's,
you know,

739
00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:11,530
30 percent sugar by calories or 
something.

740
00:38:11,531 --> 00:38:16,531
That's the first sugar coated cereal.
And for the next decade you can watch 

741
00:38:16,531 --> 00:38:20,210
the cereal industries have these 
internal battles where the marketing 

742
00:38:20,210 --> 00:38:20,550
people are saying,
we need a sugar sweetened cereal.

743
00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:25,660
We've got to compete.
We're going to be run out of the 

744
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:25,660
business.
And the health people are saying,

745
00:38:25,660 --> 00:38:26,220
no,
no sugar is bad for you.

746
00:38:26,221 --> 00:38:30,570
And in every case,
the marketers one by the 19 sixties,

747
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:35,600
not only do you have like all these,
some of these scenarios were 50 percent 

748
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:36,190
sugar by calories,
still are,

749
00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:41,730
but you've got all these iconic TV shows
that were created just to sell sugar 

750
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:44,590
cereals too.
I mean rocky and bullwinkle,

751
00:38:44,591 --> 00:38:46,540
which is my favorite.
This was heartbreaking.

752
00:38:46,541 --> 00:38:49,920
I mean those guys were created to sell 
cereal to the women,

753
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,520
the comic,
the comic,

754
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:56,550
the TV show that was created as a 
vehicle to market.

755
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:59,950
I forget which cereal it was which 
company,

756
00:38:59,951 --> 00:39:01,250
but all of these things,
you know,

757
00:39:01,490 --> 00:39:03,880
I mean there were,
the cartoon was an afterthought.

758
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,870
The cartoon was a method to sell.
So the,

759
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:11,350
the cereal industry would hire,
you know,

760
00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:16,380
these brilliant public relations men who
would create these characters and then 

761
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:20,800
get Hollywood to create animated tv 
shows with these characters.

762
00:39:20,801 --> 00:39:24,340
And then they would always sell the same
sugar sweetened cereals.

763
00:39:24,460 --> 00:39:26,350
Wow.
And so now we're just,

764
00:39:26,450 --> 00:39:28,690
you know,
think what happened to kids.

765
00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:34,620
Okay.
So the obese and diabetic people in the 

766
00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:34,870
world are the ones who started.
We all started as children,

767
00:39:34,871 --> 00:39:38,450
right?
So you know,

768
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:39,450
18,
oh five,

769
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:40,090
18,
10,

770
00:39:40,091 --> 00:39:43,000
updating 50,
maybe they see sugar once a week,

771
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,940
you know,
they still went to the country store and

772
00:39:45,941 --> 00:39:50,941
when Uncle Ed is turned the wrong way,
they stick their hand in the sugar 

773
00:39:50,941 --> 00:39:53,950
barrow and lick their fingers and alc by
1960.

774
00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:58,030
It's like orange juice cereal,
you know,

775
00:39:58,031 --> 00:40:03,031
sugary cereal,
sugar on the sugary cereal for 

776
00:40:03,031 --> 00:40:03,031
breakfast,
you know,

777
00:40:03,031 --> 00:40:06,070
a coke for a snack and candy bar.
The same kind of foods for lunch.

778
00:40:06,071 --> 00:40:08,890
I mean,
I bet most Americans didn't go more than

779
00:40:08,891 --> 00:40:13,891
three hours without a sugar dose,
whereas 150 years earlier they'd had 

780
00:40:14,471 --> 00:40:19,471
gone a week between doses.
And as this happens,

781
00:40:19,481 --> 00:40:24,481
you see these explosions and obesity and
diabetes that they're slow to build and 

782
00:40:25,361 --> 00:40:30,361
I think I could eat that can be 
explained to by the fact that mothers 

783
00:40:30,361 --> 00:40:31,990
pass this on to their kids when the kids
are in the wound.

784
00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:34,240
Is there a difference in how much of a 
difference is there,

785
00:40:34,241 --> 00:40:35,900
if any between,
um,

786
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,920
diet,
dietary diabetes or diet diabetes is 

787
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,380
directly attributed to diet and genetic?
Well,

788
00:40:42,790 --> 00:40:43,720
again,
there are different.

789
00:40:43,870 --> 00:40:44,920
First of all,
there are different types,

790
00:40:44,950 --> 00:40:49,950
type one diabetes type one type one is 
the acute form that hits mostly in 

791
00:40:49,950 --> 00:40:51,040
childhood,
um,

792
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,740
and has a strong genetic component.

793
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:57,780
It's an auto immune disease,
but that doesn't mean it's not 

794
00:40:57,780 --> 00:41:00,930
fundamentally caused by sugar.
And by that I mean if we didn't never 

795
00:41:00,930 --> 00:41:04,051
get around to eating sugar,
we wouldn't have type one diabetes and 

796
00:41:04,051 --> 00:41:06,880
that really woke people that think that 
type one diabetes,

797
00:41:06,881 --> 00:41:11,680
which is something that um,
people I know have and well,

798
00:41:11,681 --> 00:41:14,170
it's just genetic.
It's just something you were born with.

799
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,050
That's not necessarily true.
Oh,

800
00:41:17,190 --> 00:41:19,660
they couldn't be born with it.
I mean,

801
00:41:19,661 --> 00:41:21,190
it could be an,
it could be genetic,

802
00:41:21,191 --> 00:41:26,191
but it still has to be triggered,
could be triggered by something in the 

803
00:41:26,191 --> 00:41:29,851
environment.
So these people with type one diabetes 

804
00:41:29,851 --> 00:41:30,550
didn't have a poor diet,
didn't consume sugar,

805
00:41:30,551 --> 00:41:34,790
didn't eat the average American diet 
would never itself their mothers.

806
00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:38,240
Maybe even more importantly in the womb,
in the womb.

807
00:41:38,370 --> 00:41:39,800
Yeah,
Christ.

808
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:44,950
The third to last chapter of my book,
the lead to,

809
00:41:46,371 --> 00:41:51,371
of the last three chapters before the 
epilogue is called are called the if 

810
00:41:51,371 --> 00:41:51,371
then problems.

811
00:41:51,371 --> 00:41:53,030
So let me lay out what I'm proposing 
here.

812
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:55,940
The case against sugar.
Here's the.

813
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,140
So the.
There's a crime,

814
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,520
I think of it as a,
you know,

815
00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:03,550
we're in a courtroom,
a courtroom and there's a crime that's 

816
00:42:03,550 --> 00:42:07,091
committed.
The crime is epidemics of obesity and 

817
00:42:07,091 --> 00:42:09,491
diabetes that happened whenever a 
population transitions from their 

818
00:42:09,491 --> 00:42:11,570
traditional diet to a western diet and 
lifestyle.

819
00:42:11,571 --> 00:42:13,280
So it doesn't matter what the population
is,

820
00:42:13,281 --> 00:42:16,350
it can be the inuits living on like 
Caribou and cme.

821
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:19,670
They could be Mussai living on the 
blood,

822
00:42:19,790 --> 00:42:22,010
milk,
meat from the cattle they heard.

823
00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:27,020
That could be agrarian populations,
that could be south Pacific islanders 

824
00:42:27,020 --> 00:42:28,640
living on coconuts.
And you know,

825
00:42:28,730 --> 00:42:32,300
pigs.
I'm aborigines in Australia,

826
00:42:32,301 --> 00:42:34,850
Middle Eastern populations,
African populations,

827
00:42:34,851 --> 00:42:37,400
European populations.
It does not matter.

828
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:43,630
Eventually they transition.
You see these epidemics of recent 

829
00:42:43,630 --> 00:42:44,210
diabetes,
that's the crime.

830
00:42:44,211 --> 00:42:47,750
So the argument I'm making is that sugar
is always at the scene of the crime in a

831
00:42:47,751 --> 00:42:48,980
population wide level.

832
00:42:48,980 --> 00:42:52,610
So there's a lot of things that happen 
when you transitioned to western diets.

833
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:55,130
For instance,
a lot of populations eat more meat,

834
00:42:55,850 --> 00:43:00,850
but some populations like the inuits,
they don't eat more me because they 

835
00:43:00,850 --> 00:43:03,860
reading or the native Americans of the 
plains Indians,

836
00:43:03,861 --> 00:43:06,170
they don't eat more meat because they 
were living on me to begin with,

837
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,670
but they also get obesity and diabetes 
epidemics.

838
00:43:09,690 --> 00:43:14,630
I'm willing to rule out meat on that 
level and other people did as well.

839
00:43:14,631 --> 00:43:19,631
You know,
they become more sedentary when you're 

840
00:43:19,631 --> 00:43:19,631
Westernized.
You get more labor saving devices,

841
00:43:19,631 --> 00:43:21,050
you dry places instead of walking 
places.

842
00:43:21,051 --> 00:43:26,051
So maybe it's sedentary behavior,
but you could find populations that are 

843
00:43:26,051 --> 00:43:26,380
incredibly physically active.
Um,

844
00:43:27,470 --> 00:43:32,470
cane cut it there a in the natal region 
of South Africa in the 18th century,

845
00:43:33,201 --> 00:43:38,201
they used to import a in the Indians 
from India as indentured slaves,

846
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:44,290
indentured laborers effectively slavery,
but they call them indentured laborers 

847
00:43:44,290 --> 00:43:48,221
to work in the sugar plantations and a 
cane cutters in the sugar plantations.

848
00:43:48,310 --> 00:43:53,310
That was one of the most energy intense 
jobs you can imagine than one estimate 

849
00:43:53,310 --> 00:43:54,470
was they burned 9,000
calories a day.

850
00:43:55,130 --> 00:44:00,130
And yet,
these in the town Indians had among the 

851
00:44:00,130 --> 00:44:01,700
highest rates of diabetes ever seen and 
their ancestors,

852
00:44:01,870 --> 00:44:05,120
the population from which they were 
drawn in India,

853
00:44:05,121 --> 00:44:10,121
had virtually no diabetes and the 
primary difference in their diet was a 

854
00:44:10,121 --> 00:44:13,991
sugar consumption.
So you could play this game where you 

855
00:44:13,991 --> 00:44:15,230
isolate out populations and what you 
find.

856
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:20,290
What I found,
this is no population when you get an 

857
00:44:20,290 --> 00:44:22,511
obesity and diabetes epidemic,
where sugar recent increases in sugar 

858
00:44:22,511 --> 00:44:26,080
consumption habit occurred and by recent
it could be 20 years ago,

859
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:31,100
could be 50 years ago.
So it's always at the scene of the 

860
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:31,100
crime.
Now,

861
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:36,560
type two diabetes,
the common form that associates with 

862
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:36,980
excess weight is a,
um,

863
00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:42,580
uh,
it's fundamentally the sort of what's 

864
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:42,580
called insulin resistance.

865
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:42,580
So type one,
you,

866
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:44,460
your pancreas doesn't secrete enough 
insulin.

867
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:50,180
Type two,
your body is resistant to the insulin 

868
00:44:50,180 --> 00:44:51,500
that your pancreas secretes.
So you gotTa pump,

869
00:44:51,540 --> 00:44:54,930
you've got to secrete more and more to 
keep your blood sugar under control.

870
00:44:54,931 --> 00:44:59,931
And the idea is eventually your pancreas
gets exhausted and the can't do it 

871
00:44:59,931 --> 00:45:04,431
anymore.
And then you have a deficit of insulin 

872
00:45:04,431 --> 00:45:06,511
and it looks like you're.
The results were pretty much similar to 

873
00:45:06,511 --> 00:45:09,111
type one.
So insulin resistance is also very 

874
00:45:10,531 --> 00:45:14,070
closely associated to obesity.
And we could discuss that as well.

875
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:19,240
Um,
you could look at these epidemics of 

876
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:19,240
obesity,
diabetes,

877
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:19,830
heart disease,
cancer,

878
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:25,280
Alzheimer's,
dementia basically is manifestations of 

879
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,251
insulin resistance happening all around 
the world in different ways and 

880
00:45:28,251 --> 00:45:32,601
different people,
but they're all related to insulin 

881
00:45:32,601 --> 00:45:33,120
resistance and insulin.
And then you ask yourself,

882
00:45:33,121 --> 00:45:38,121
well causes the insulin resistance.
So the best researchers in the world who

883
00:45:38,521 --> 00:45:42,120
study insulin resistance,
the leading hypothesis is that it starts

884
00:45:42,121 --> 00:45:46,350
in the liver and it starts in the liver 
with the conversion,

885
00:45:46,351 --> 00:45:49,170
with the accumulation of fats and liver 
cells.

886
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,440
And in fact,
we also have an epidemic of what's 

887
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,271
called nonalcoholic fatty liver disease 
in this country right now used to be 20 

888
00:45:56,271 --> 00:45:57,780
slash 30 years ago,
if I'm.

889
00:45:59,130 --> 00:46:04,130
If you've got fatty liver disease and 
you saw your doctor and you told them 

890
00:46:04,130 --> 00:46:07,311
you didn't drink,
they would just assume you're lying 

891
00:46:07,311 --> 00:46:08,370
because they clearly.
Alcoholics got fatty liver disease.

892
00:46:08,371 --> 00:46:11,700
But suddenly people started showing up 
who swore they didn't drink,

893
00:46:11,701 --> 00:46:16,701
and then kids started showing up with 
fatty liver disease who clearly didn't 

894
00:46:16,701 --> 00:46:20,421
drink alcohol.
So we got this concept nonalcoholic 

895
00:46:20,421 --> 00:46:24,381
fatty liver disease.
It's basically indistinguishable from 

896
00:46:24,381 --> 00:46:27,201
the alcoholic kind and it's happened.
The CDC estimates 40 million Americans 

897
00:46:28,051 --> 00:46:29,670
have this,
and if it progresses,

898
00:46:29,671 --> 00:46:34,671
it can progress to what's called Nash,
which is not alcoholics stereo 

899
00:46:34,671 --> 00:46:39,531
hepatitis,
and eventually the need for liver 

900
00:46:39,531 --> 00:46:44,451
transplant.
So Sugar Christ.

901
00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:47,970
Now I know like what are we talking 
about when we're talking about sugar?

902
00:46:47,971 --> 00:46:52,971
So sugar cane sugar beet sugar are 
technically sucrose.

903
00:46:53,070 --> 00:46:56,040
That's a molecule of glucose bonded to a
molecule.

904
00:46:56,041 --> 00:46:58,530
Fructose,
fructose makes it sweet.

905
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,070
High Fructose Corn Syrup is 45 percent 
glucose,

906
00:47:05,370 --> 00:47:08,460
55 percent fructose,
same chemical constituents.

907
00:47:08,461 --> 00:47:13,461
They're not bonded together.
I don't think that makes a damn bit of 

908
00:47:13,461 --> 00:47:13,461
difference.
Some people do.

909
00:47:13,461 --> 00:47:17,830
Um,
the fructose is metabolized in your 

910
00:47:17,830 --> 00:47:21,231
liver,
so the glucose gets into your 

911
00:47:21,231 --> 00:47:22,911
bloodstream,
just like any other glucose from any 

912
00:47:22,911 --> 00:47:25,560
other carbohydrate.
The fructose goes to your liver and your

913
00:47:25,561 --> 00:47:30,561
liver gets it in a high dose,
like say from an apple juice or 

914
00:47:30,561 --> 00:47:33,681
something.
It has trouble dealing with that much 

915
00:47:33,681 --> 00:47:37,981
fructose.
You never evolved to see a glass of 

916
00:47:37,981 --> 00:47:40,540
apple juice for glass can of cokes worth
of fructose be delivered over the course

917
00:47:40,541 --> 00:47:41,680
of five,
10 minutes,

918
00:47:41,681 --> 00:47:45,040
probably even 30 minutes,
so it converted into fat.

919
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:51,180
So we have a condition,
insulin resistant that's epidemic 

920
00:47:51,180 --> 00:47:53,761
worldwide that you know,
the leading research in the country 

921
00:47:53,761 --> 00:47:58,081
think is caused by the accumulation of 
fat in liver cells and we've got a 

922
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,320
substance sugar that's been exploded in 
use worldwide in which half of it is 

923
00:48:05,111 --> 00:48:09,670
metabolized in the liver and it's 
converted into fat and liver cells.

924
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:15,360
So it's like it's at the scene of the 
crime in populations and set the scene 

925
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,171
of the crime in a body and it's got a 
mechanism.

926
00:48:20,531 --> 00:48:24,250
It's got the gun necessary.
You know,

927
00:48:24,251 --> 00:48:27,760
you can match the bullets almost,
but we don't have the smoking gun.

928
00:48:27,761 --> 00:48:29,540
That's where the research falls short.
And then,

929
00:48:29,541 --> 00:48:33,730
so this is the case I'm making.
Then if sugar causes insulin resistance,

930
00:48:34,650 --> 00:48:39,650
there are all kinds of downstream 
effects including what mothers will do 

931
00:48:39,650 --> 00:48:42,040
to their children if they are insulin 
resistant and have high blood sugar when

932
00:48:42,041 --> 00:48:42,670
they're pregnant.

933
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:47,020
Jesus Christ.
Yeah.

934
00:48:47,021 --> 00:48:48,490
Well,
and that's why my argument is,

935
00:48:48,650 --> 00:48:50,170
you know,
it's almost too much.

936
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,440
It would be easier if I just said it's 
empty calories because you know what,

937
00:48:55,911 --> 00:48:58,690
what back against your book and against 
your research,

938
00:48:58,750 --> 00:49:00,070
have you experienced.
Well,

939
00:49:00,071 --> 00:49:05,071
I mean,
there are people who just object to my 

940
00:49:05,071 --> 00:49:05,200
exists.
Have you debated these people?

941
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:10,750
Uh,
I'm in the process of debating to have 

942
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:12,760
them online now.
The keto in Keto,

943
00:49:12,761 --> 00:49:13,810
one bound,
it's called.

944
00:49:13,811 --> 00:49:14,610
I went to,
by the way,

945
00:49:14,650 --> 00:49:15,640
done this.
If I'm,

946
00:49:16,060 --> 00:49:21,060
I'm not a fan of debates in science 
because I don't think they settled 

947
00:49:21,060 --> 00:49:23,971
thing.
I'm a fans of people getting together 

948
00:49:23,971 --> 00:49:23,971
and saying,
look,

949
00:49:23,971 --> 00:49:23,971
you believe this,
I believe this.

950
00:49:23,971 --> 00:49:26,040
What experiment can we do to find out 
who's not,

951
00:49:26,050 --> 00:49:27,520
who's the better rider?
You know,

952
00:49:27,521 --> 00:49:30,430
read a rhetorician I know what you're 
saying.

953
00:49:30,431 --> 00:49:35,431
Yeah.
He was more charismatic point across 

954
00:49:35,431 --> 00:49:35,431
more,
you know,

955
00:49:35,431 --> 00:49:36,820
it's just that pallet in the obesity 
society.

956
00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:37,330
And the,
uh,

957
00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:42,390
Jordan,
the nutrition society's once a year 

958
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:43,930
they'll have their annual conference 
alva debate over this and everybody,

959
00:49:43,931 --> 00:49:45,130
Oh yeah,
I thought you did better,

960
00:49:45,131 --> 00:49:47,140
but nobody walks out of the debate 
saying,

961
00:49:47,620 --> 00:49:49,450
what experiment can we do to settle 
this?

962
00:49:49,451 --> 00:49:51,550
And I think it's,
you don't get me to have these epidemics

963
00:49:51,551 --> 00:49:56,551
are tragic.
The cost of obesity and diabetes in the 

964
00:49:56,551 --> 00:49:59,881
US direct cost,
the medical systems estimate is 

965
00:49:59,881 --> 00:49:59,881
$2,000,000,000
a year.

966
00:49:59,881 --> 00:50:00,160
I mean,
excuse me,

967
00:50:00,220 --> 00:50:05,220
a billion dollars a day.
What light direct cost to the healthcare

968
00:50:06,611 --> 00:50:08,830
system.
Three hundred $65 million dollars a year

969
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:12,180
just because of obesity and diabetes.
Jesus.

970
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:15,570
And if you think about it,
so that's $365,000,000,000.

971
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:18,910
It is a direct cost to the tax burden on
the healthcare system,

972
00:50:18,911 --> 00:50:22,450
but it's a tremendous for the 
pharmaceutical industry,

973
00:50:22,451 --> 00:50:24,580
right?
In the physicians and the hospitals that

974
00:50:24,581 --> 00:50:28,160
are getting that money.
So they don't have quite much motivation

975
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,890
as might to stem this tide because 
they're profiting

976
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,430
from it.
Are they even aware of the causes of it?

977
00:50:35,431 --> 00:50:40,431
If your,
if your work is so controversial and 

978
00:50:40,431 --> 00:50:43,821
there's so many people out there that 
are disputing it or disputing this link 

979
00:50:43,821 --> 00:50:47,600
between sugar and all these horrible 
diseases and they're calling it empty 

980
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,631
calories,
is this even something that in the 

981
00:50:50,631 --> 00:50:52,941
medical community where they spend a 
ridiculously short amount of time in 

982
00:50:52,941 --> 00:50:53,960
school learning about nutrition and.
Well,

983
00:50:54,010 --> 00:50:55,770
thank God for that because if they learn
more,

984
00:50:55,771 --> 00:50:57,140
they would learn the wrong thing.
Right?

985
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:01,830
Then they'd be dogmatic point now.
Well these people,

986
00:51:01,890 --> 00:51:04,470
they don't really have the information.
You know,

987
00:51:04,471 --> 00:51:05,610
you can go ahead and blow your nose,
man.

988
00:51:06,060 --> 00:51:11,060
Don't worry about it.
You've been struggling with it for 

989
00:51:11,060 --> 00:51:12,840
awhile.
He had gary sick because he hasn't had 

990
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:12,840
enough sugar,
ladies and gentlemen.

991
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:12,840
Yes,
exactly.

992
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,280
Um,
but I mean,

993
00:51:17,730 --> 00:51:19,800
it seems to me like they don't have the 
time.

994
00:51:20,070 --> 00:51:22,290
I mean,
I don't have the time to do the research

995
00:51:22,291 --> 00:51:23,910
that you did.
A very few people do.

996
00:51:23,940 --> 00:51:27,560
It really takes someone like you.
It takes a maniac to go out there and,

997
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,640
and stretch your finances and put 
yourself in a bad position to and really

998
00:51:33,031 --> 00:51:34,860
be obsessive chasing this down.
Yeah,

999
00:51:34,861 --> 00:51:35,490
no,
it's true.

1000
00:51:35,730 --> 00:51:40,730
Again,
that doesn't mean that you're supposed 

1001
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:40,730
to believe somebody like me.
And again,

1002
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:40,730
you can,
you know,

1003
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:41,580
I'm a journalist.
I used to think,

1004
00:51:43,310 --> 00:51:48,310
you know,
imagined some plumber came up to me one 

1005
00:51:48,310 --> 00:51:48,310
day and he said,
you know,

1006
00:51:48,310 --> 00:51:52,911
I just spent like the last 10 years of 
my life studying how to do termism and 

1007
00:51:53,551 --> 00:51:56,210
I've written this book and you're doing 
it all wrong.

1008
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:58,850
That's a good point.
You know,

1009
00:51:58,980 --> 00:52:00,210
and I'm like,
okay,

1010
00:52:00,211 --> 00:52:00,720
yeah,
sure,

1011
00:52:00,721 --> 00:52:02,010
I'll take the book,
you know,

1012
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,520
and I can't wait to read it.
Then I'm going to go home and I'm not 

1013
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,730
probably going to throw the book out 
because the odds that that's a waste of 

1014
00:52:10,730 --> 00:52:12,090
time for me are enormous.

1015
00:52:12,620 --> 00:52:17,620
When one was the first one,
when did diabetes first sort of emerge 

1016
00:52:20,430 --> 00:52:21,830
in,
in medical records?

1017
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:23,060
Medical records,
you said

1018
00:52:23,470 --> 00:52:26,350
2000 years ago when,
like Hindu medical documents,

1019
00:52:26,370 --> 00:52:30,070
uh,
coincidentally with the beginning of the

1020
00:52:30,071 --> 00:52:32,440
sugar industry in northern India.
Yeah,

1021
00:52:32,441 --> 00:52:35,890
I mean just give or take 200 years.
Holy Shit.

1022
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:36,510
But,
um,

1023
00:52:36,580 --> 00:52:39,920
and even back then they speculate that 
it was caused by sugar.

1024
00:52:39,921 --> 00:52:44,921
Although I think for the wrong reasons,
because the diabetic urine and you're 

1025
00:52:44,921 --> 00:52:45,040
pissing out a lot of glucose,
right,

1026
00:52:45,041 --> 00:52:47,440
because your body can't handle it,
so it's Sweden,

1027
00:52:47,441 --> 00:52:52,441
it'll attract flies and back then even 
up until a 17th century,

1028
00:52:52,571 --> 00:52:57,571
part of classic medical practice was for
the physician to have his assistant 

1029
00:52:57,571 --> 00:52:58,590
taste the urine.
He didn't.

1030
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:00,060
He didn't have to do it himself,
but the.

1031
00:53:00,570 --> 00:53:01,660
And that could be,
by the way,

1032
00:53:01,661 --> 00:53:04,360
one reason why a lot of diabetes went 
undiagnosed.

1033
00:53:05,170 --> 00:53:07,390
People wouldn't drink the as people 
wouldn't drink the pis.

1034
00:53:07,391 --> 00:53:08,440
Yeah.
So,

1035
00:53:08,500 --> 00:53:10,210
and you got to keep all this stuff in 
mind.

1036
00:53:10,211 --> 00:53:14,050
I mean this is a ridiculous way.
All they had,

1037
00:53:14,051 --> 00:53:19,051
you know,
science is determined by the technology 

1038
00:53:19,051 --> 00:53:22,021
available.
That was one of the lessons that we can 

1039
00:53:22,021 --> 00:53:23,851
get into this because all my books are 
about good science and bad science that 

1040
00:53:23,851 --> 00:53:24,040
I.
I hope I understand what I'm doing.

1041
00:53:24,190 --> 00:53:24,820
Like I said,
I

1042
00:53:26,330 --> 00:53:28,500
know if I don't,
it's really bad.

1043
00:53:28,501 --> 00:53:29,860
It's embarrassing.
Yeah.

1044
00:53:29,940 --> 00:53:32,010
I wake up at three,
four in the morning and thinking,

1045
00:53:32,011 --> 00:53:34,740
why do I so obsessed about this calorie 
issue?

1046
00:53:34,741 --> 00:53:37,560
Nobody else seems to care,
but people do now,

1047
00:53:37,590 --> 00:53:42,590
don't,
don't you feel that we live in a very 

1048
00:53:42,590 --> 00:53:42,590
small world.
You know,

1049
00:53:42,590 --> 00:53:45,750
it's hard to understand.
I mean even with your whatever,

1050
00:53:45,751 --> 00:53:49,140
20 million downloads a month that all 
your followers is not more than that.

1051
00:53:49,470 --> 00:53:54,470
Yeah.
I mean think about how many of those 

1052
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:54,470
voted for the current president for 
instance.

1053
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:55,650
I mean it's just,
it's a very.

1054
00:53:56,130 --> 00:53:59,310
I'm glad to hear it's a lot more because
I want to get this out,

1055
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:04,400
you know,
I mean even if it's just for this one 

1056
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,621
particular subject,
which I think is probably the most 

1057
00:54:06,621 --> 00:54:08,931
important subject today when in terms of
health and wellness and just optimizing 

1058
00:54:09,781 --> 00:54:13,770
your existence,
cutting out sugar and changing your diet

1059
00:54:13,771 --> 00:54:17,760
I think is one of the most important 
factors and living a healthier,

1060
00:54:17,761 --> 00:54:20,750
more productive life and also mental 
clarity.

1061
00:54:21,180 --> 00:54:23,250
Well now let me ask you a question.
When you cut out sugar,

1062
00:54:23,251 --> 00:54:27,870
so you said you cut it out slowly.
What were you eating at the time?

1063
00:54:27,871 --> 00:54:32,871
Because I gather I'd never ate bad.
The but I pastas and bread I eat.

1064
00:54:33,570 --> 00:54:38,570
I always supplemented with vitamins.
I always worked out hard and I was 

1065
00:54:38,570 --> 00:54:39,270
always lean because I worked out so 
much,

1066
00:54:39,330 --> 00:54:44,330
so I never thought I had an issue with 
fat or I never thought I had an issue 

1067
00:54:44,330 --> 00:54:45,810
with any of those things,
but I would get that crash.

1068
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:49,370
I would did that in late afternoon crash
and this fucking insulin dump.

1069
00:54:49,470 --> 00:54:50,670
Yeah,
I used to say,

1070
00:54:50,671 --> 00:54:55,671
I say I don't take naps.
They take me like an hour after lunch 

1071
00:54:56,071 --> 00:54:57,870
and I'd be interviewing some Nobel 
prize.

1072
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:02,430
What I'd have to think of an excuse to 
get off because I was falling asleep.

1073
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,340
Do you mean that doesn't happen to me 
anymore?

1074
00:55:05,460 --> 00:55:06,390
No,
it's fascinating.

1075
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,570
It's unbelievably fascinating.
I would never have guessed.

1076
00:55:09,571 --> 00:55:14,571
I would've thought you needed some sort 
of stimulant to keep you going like 

1077
00:55:14,571 --> 00:55:14,571
that.
Although in all honesty,

1078
00:55:14,571 --> 00:55:15,730
we were both drinking bulletproof 
coffees right now,

1079
00:55:15,731 --> 00:55:17,850
so we are getting some sort of 
stimulant.

1080
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:18,780
We are,
but I didn't.

1081
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:20,670
I didn't have to have that.
I mean,

1082
00:55:20,730 --> 00:55:22,680
but that's the book tour.
Yeah,

1083
00:55:23,730 --> 00:55:26,160
but here's the thing,
when you cut out the grains,

1084
00:55:26,161 --> 00:55:27,060
the bread,
the pasta,

1085
00:55:27,061 --> 00:55:28,770
that's still.
That's glucose.

1086
00:55:28,771 --> 00:55:33,060
So were you eating sugar?
We're drinking gatorade very rarely,

1087
00:55:33,180 --> 00:55:36,060
very rarely.
I was still eating pretty clean,

1088
00:55:36,510 --> 00:55:38,940
like I would have dessert every now and 
then,

1089
00:55:38,941 --> 00:55:40,810
but it wasn't more than a few times a 
week.

1090
00:55:41,070 --> 00:55:42,720
I wasn't eating candy bars during the 
day,

1091
00:55:42,721 --> 00:55:47,721
but I was eating the occasional protein 
bar that was loaded with sugar that I 

1092
00:55:47,721 --> 00:55:47,850
didn't even think it was.
So that's what I thought it was.

1093
00:55:47,850 --> 00:55:49,710
Eating healthy.
That's what gets me.

1094
00:55:49,711 --> 00:55:51,960
So once we got into this diet,
to this idea.

1095
00:55:51,961 --> 00:55:55,200
So one of the things,
and this was a second article I read,

1096
00:55:55,201 --> 00:56:00,201
so is there evidence to support this 
idea we should be eating the low fat 

1097
00:56:00,201 --> 00:56:02,931
diet?
I mean the second article I wrote and I 

1098
00:56:02,931 --> 00:56:05,541
recreated the history of that and it was
fascinating because once these people 

1099
00:56:05,541 --> 00:56:07,080
got this idea that fat caused heart 
disease.

1100
00:56:07,140 --> 00:56:12,140
So remember,
science is determined by what you can 

1101
00:56:12,140 --> 00:56:14,151
measure.
So the technology have tells you what 

1102
00:56:14,151 --> 00:56:14,151
you can measure and what you can 
measure,

1103
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:19,870
what you can ask questions about,
and then that gives you the answers and 

1104
00:56:19,870 --> 00:56:22,821
if you're bad scientists forget that.
It's completely limited to the 

1105
00:56:22,821 --> 00:56:24,400
technology.
So there's an old joke in science

1106
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,890
called the drunk and the streetlight 
problem,

1107
00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:31,930
do you ever hear about now?
So guys walking down the street and he 

1108
00:56:31,930 --> 00:56:34,930
comes upon a drawn coups crawling around
in his knees under a street light and he

1109
00:56:34,931 --> 00:56:36,280
says to the guy,
what are you doing?

1110
00:56:36,281 --> 00:56:38,320
And the guy says,
I'm looking for my keys.

1111
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:40,340
And the guy said,
so cisco,

1112
00:56:40,470 --> 00:56:42,670
you lost them in the drunk goes,
I don't know where I lost them,

1113
00:56:42,671 --> 00:56:45,810
but this is where the light is.
Okay.

1114
00:56:45,850 --> 00:56:50,850
So in science it's like what you could 
measure is where the light is and you 

1115
00:56:50,850 --> 00:56:54,251
got to remember that there's a universe 
out there that you can't see yet 

1116
00:56:54,251 --> 00:56:54,850
because.
But most scientists,

1117
00:56:54,851 --> 00:56:57,910
most scientists don't realize that 
they're just not good scientists.

1118
00:56:58,390 --> 00:57:01,120
So in the heart disease,
the light was on cholesterol.

1119
00:57:01,420 --> 00:57:04,540
That was at 1950 sixties.
That's what they could measure.

1120
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,510
And they got this idea that it's caused 
by dietary fat.

1121
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:11,890
And because of that we just,
you know,

1122
00:57:11,891 --> 00:57:16,891
again,
they tested and tested this hypothesis 

1123
00:57:16,891 --> 00:57:19,621
and kept being failed the test,
but they didn't care because they 

1124
00:57:19,621 --> 00:57:22,621
thought it had to be true.
And by the 19 eighties we lock it in as 

1125
00:57:22,621 --> 00:57:26,680
a dogma and now we have this idea that 
the healthy way to eat is a low fat diet

1126
00:57:26,681 --> 00:57:31,270
and you start making products where you 
take the fat out of it and once you take

1127
00:57:31,271 --> 00:57:34,030
the fat out of something,
it doesn't taste all that good.

1128
00:57:34,090 --> 00:57:35,890
Like yogurts,
a classic example,

1129
00:57:35,891 --> 00:57:40,430
I mean it is fat and some modest amount 
of black posts.

1130
00:57:40,450 --> 00:57:45,450
I don't even know if there's lactose in 
it and I should know this stuff because 

1131
00:57:45,450 --> 00:57:45,450
then people say clearly you're not a 
nutritionist,

1132
00:57:46,510 --> 00:57:49,900
so they candy bars instead of eating 
snickers bars,

1133
00:57:49,930 --> 00:57:53,800
which a high fat,
high sugar thing that we grew up on.

1134
00:57:54,250 --> 00:57:59,250
You create clif bars and nature's way 
bars and all these low fat health food 

1135
00:57:59,651 --> 00:58:04,070
bars that we think are healthy because 
they're low in fat.

1136
00:58:04,071 --> 00:58:06,880
They're loaded with carbs and they fill 
them up with sugar.

1137
00:58:06,881 --> 00:58:09,550
And then to this day I'm wondering like,
should I just let you know,

1138
00:58:09,580 --> 00:58:13,720
we have a drawer with these health food 
bars at my wife.

1139
00:58:13,721 --> 00:58:18,721
I'm not the only parent in the family.
So my kids are in tortured by my food 

1140
00:58:18,721 --> 00:58:19,370
beliefs.
Um,

1141
00:58:19,570 --> 00:58:24,570
would they be healthier if they just ate
snickers bars like we did when we were 

1142
00:58:24,570 --> 00:58:25,360
kids?
And I don't know what the answer is.

1143
00:58:25,361 --> 00:58:27,130
I literally,
I could argue it either way.

1144
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,490
How could you argue it?
That they would be healthier if they had

1145
00:58:29,491 --> 00:58:30,970
all that sugar?
Well,

1146
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,000
they both have the sugar.
Will you both like Lara bars versus 

1147
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,690
those Lara bars?
I really love those.

1148
00:58:37,690 --> 00:58:40,270
They taste good,
but they're 19 fucking grams of sugar or

1149
00:58:40,271 --> 00:58:45,271
something crazy.
And it's only like the size of your 

1150
00:58:45,271 --> 00:58:45,271
thumb.
Yeah.

1151
00:58:45,271 --> 00:58:46,250
So the basically,
I don't know what the sugar content that

1152
00:58:46,251 --> 00:58:50,140
you can probably google it while we're 
talking about regular size snickers bar.

1153
00:58:50,141 --> 00:58:53,140
It's probably more than 19 grams,
but it's also got all that fat in it,

1154
00:58:53,141 --> 00:58:55,630
which will slow down the digestion of 
the sugar.

1155
00:58:55,690 --> 00:59:00,690
So a snickers bar arguably is better for
you than some of these really super 

1156
00:59:00,690 --> 00:59:05,011
sugary,
what we think air quotes are healthy 

1157
00:59:05,011 --> 00:59:05,260
snacks like trail bars and.
Yeah,

1158
00:59:05,261 --> 00:59:07,530
and the key word there is arguably it.
Here we go,

1159
00:59:07,540 --> 00:59:09,180
20 grams of sugar.
And what does that.

1160
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:10,990
A snickers bar.
That's a lot.

1161
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:11,980
Yes.
Christ.

1162
00:59:11,981 --> 00:59:12,850
Yeah.
But it's a bigger.

1163
00:59:12,940 --> 00:59:16,120
It's going to be a big way more.
So what about the law of in a way more.

1164
00:59:16,540 --> 00:59:18,610
Well,
it's a 44 grams.

1165
00:59:19,750 --> 00:59:21,530
Okay.
Okay.

1166
00:59:24,380 --> 00:59:25,340
Yeah.
Those things.

1167
00:59:25,341 --> 00:59:27,260
Lara bars.
St.

1168
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:29,330
Find out what,
what the fuck is in those bad boys?

1169
00:59:29,570 --> 00:59:32,270
Because I had one.
I bought one once.

1170
00:59:32,271 --> 00:59:35,690
This is before I had gone on my crusade 
sugar.

1171
00:59:35,691 --> 00:59:39,790
It says wait a minute.
But they're fruit and nut bars.

1172
00:59:39,791 --> 00:59:42,680
So the question is how much sugar are in
the fruit?

1173
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,350
Maybe you're looking at the.
Maybe it's a different one.

1174
00:59:46,070 --> 00:59:47,150
Which one are you looking at here?
Yeah,

1175
00:59:47,151 --> 00:59:48,980
that's it.
What does it say here?

1176
00:59:49,220 --> 00:59:50,590
How many grams?
Twenty grams.

1177
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:52,150
Twenty grams.
So it's the same as this.

1178
00:59:52,170 --> 00:59:54,540
So why the fuck are they lying?
No added sugar.

1179
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:58,370
It could be because it comes from fruit 
sugar.

1180
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,860
Your body doesn't know that you're 
playing a Goddamn game.

1181
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:02,090
Yes.
You're playing a game.

1182
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,750
Exactly.
Let's say.

1183
01:00:05,110 --> 01:00:08,290
I'm just curious how fruits and nuts in 
their bars.

1184
01:00:08,340 --> 01:00:11,340
World Health Organization's recommended 
daily sugar intake for adults.

1185
01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:15,680
Five percent of daily caloric intake for
normal weight adult eating 2000 calories

1186
01:00:15,681 --> 01:00:15,860
a day.

1187
01:00:15,860 --> 01:00:20,860
That's 25 grams.
So now is that added sugar per day?

1188
01:00:21,110 --> 01:00:22,970
I mean when you're talking about 
lactose,

1189
01:00:22,971 --> 01:00:25,160
when you talk to me about fruits,
it's funny,

1190
01:00:25,161 --> 01:00:30,161
I just,
a friend just sent me an article today 

1191
01:00:30,161 --> 01:00:32,561
on a European Journal of clinical 
nutrition where they were looking at 

1192
01:00:32,561 --> 01:00:35,921
sugar content of children's diets in 
Europe and they age one,

1193
01:00:36,921 --> 01:00:40,160
they were 30 percent of their calories 
from sugar Jesus Christ,

1194
01:00:40,460 --> 01:00:44,980
but just trying to make sense of it.
I pretty sure that included lactose free

1195
01:00:45,010 --> 01:00:47,460
milk,
which was a primary source.

1196
01:00:47,461 --> 01:00:49,910
He said the primary source of the sugar 
with dairy products.

1197
01:00:49,911 --> 01:00:51,920
It could also be from,
you know,

1198
01:00:51,921 --> 01:00:56,300
a Bot artificial formulas.
People take that in consideration,

1199
01:00:56,301 --> 01:00:57,380
right?
If you two pieces of cheese,

1200
01:00:57,381 --> 01:00:59,060
you're getting some sugar.
Yeah.

1201
01:00:59,061 --> 01:01:01,880
Although again,
cheese once you process it,

1202
01:01:01,910 --> 01:01:05,020
process and lose the lactose.
Um,

1203
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:07,420
but yeah,
it sort of.

1204
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:11,000
But even the lactose is metabolized 
differently than the fructose.

1205
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:16,000
So I would argue that we evolved to 
consume lactose at least until we were 

1206
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,350
out in weaning.
Few,

1207
01:01:18,380 --> 01:01:19,880
three,
four years old.

1208
01:01:20,220 --> 01:01:21,620
Drank milk,
no,

1209
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,020
I actually gave up their right,
but for different reasons,

1210
01:01:24,021 --> 01:01:29,021
not because I uh,
for me it has unfortunate 

1211
01:01:29,021 --> 01:01:32,150
gastrointestinal side effects that my 
whole family could live without,

1212
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,550
um,
you know,

1213
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:37,910
uh,
if you go into a low carb,

1214
01:01:37,911 --> 01:01:41,100
high fat diet,
which I think is a help,

1215
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,530
certainly those of us should be eating 
or predisposed to get fat or diabetic.

1216
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:47,350
Um,
yeah.

1217
01:01:47,390 --> 01:01:51,350
Cheese is a very valuable item with the 
Diet and clearly like the French and the

1218
01:01:51,351 --> 01:01:56,351
Swiss and even the Greeks had enormous 
amounts of cheese and they live quite a 

1219
01:01:56,351 --> 01:01:58,280
long time there.
Do you believe in raw milk?

1220
01:01:58,281 --> 01:02:01,010
Have you attempted to try that?
Or raw cheese?

1221
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,120
I don't.
Is My gut feeling from him or I'm a,

1222
01:02:04,130 --> 01:02:09,130
I'm a,
I focus obsessively on one subject and 

1223
01:02:09,130 --> 01:02:11,730
it's the carb content and the sugars and
the refined grains and the.

1224
01:02:11,860 --> 01:02:13,280
What's the cause of obesity?
I don't.

1225
01:02:13,550 --> 01:02:16,190
Raw milk doesn't enter into that 
discussion.

1226
01:02:16,191 --> 01:02:19,320
And what Amanda about it is just from 
the gastrointestinal issues,

1227
01:02:19,350 --> 01:02:24,350
because a lot of people believe that raw
milk with all the natural enzymes in it 

1228
01:02:24,350 --> 01:02:27,030
is easier for your body to process.
That's quite possible,

1229
01:02:27,031 --> 01:02:27,930
but again,
as a,

1230
01:02:28,950 --> 01:02:33,950
if you're way weight easily,
then I wouldn't be recommending liquid 

1231
01:02:33,950 --> 01:02:36,240
carbs of any kind,
including the lactose.

1232
01:02:36,260 --> 01:02:38,200
And so,
um,

1233
01:02:38,370 --> 01:02:43,370
they look at the low carb diets 
traditionally and historically they 

1234
01:02:43,370 --> 01:02:45,210
never allowed for milk even.
I mean,

1235
01:02:45,211 --> 01:02:47,190
you might go for a heavy cream or cream,
you know,

1236
01:02:47,191 --> 01:02:51,690
that sort of Atkins thing or the 
bulletproof coffee thing.

1237
01:02:51,691 --> 01:02:56,691
But yeah,
I know a lot of people who are on the 

1238
01:02:56,691 --> 01:02:58,590
key to genic diet that will actually 
drink heavy cream.

1239
01:02:58,810 --> 01:02:59,970
Yeah.
My friend Kyle,

1240
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,760
who actually was one of the first people
that turned me onto at Kingsbury,

1241
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:03,930
he,
uh,

1242
01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:09,020
he,
he carries around this little fucking 

1243
01:03:09,020 --> 01:03:09,020
pint of heavy cream,
but he's a savage.

1244
01:03:09,020 --> 01:03:09,180
Yeah,
no,

1245
01:03:09,690 --> 01:03:14,690
my uh,
former collaborator Peter Attia who's 

1246
01:03:14,690 --> 01:03:14,690
his,
you know,

1247
01:03:14,730 --> 01:03:19,730
Internet handle.
One point I think was kidogenic man and 

1248
01:03:19,730 --> 01:03:22,611
he used to drink olive oil cheeses,
cream a well because you've got to 

1249
01:03:22,611 --> 01:03:26,760
really up the fat those diets for a lot 
of people to get Cathartic.

1250
01:03:26,790 --> 01:03:28,020
Not everyone,
but um,

1251
01:03:28,980 --> 01:03:31,660
it's interesting.
I thought I heard you were trying it.

1252
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:32,840
I'm on it.
Yeah.

1253
01:03:32,860 --> 01:03:34,920
And what essentially.
So tell me your diet.

1254
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:36,130
Well,
um,

1255
01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:38,850
a lot of Avocados,
a lot of coconut oil.

1256
01:03:39,340 --> 01:03:44,340
I'm,
I might eat a little bit more protein 

1257
01:03:44,340 --> 01:03:46,180
than I'm supposed to,
which unfortunately does convert back to

1258
01:03:46,230 --> 01:03:51,230
sugar in your body of glucose,
but easily much more easily processed 

1259
01:03:51,230 --> 01:03:52,620
obviously than high fructose corn syrup.
Right.

1260
01:03:53,220 --> 01:03:58,220
I'm very,
very little pastas or grains or breads 

1261
01:03:58,220 --> 01:03:59,340
or anything.
It's a rare thing that I eat that stuff.

1262
01:03:59,370 --> 01:04:00,690
Do you actually measure your ketones?

1263
01:04:00,780 --> 01:04:03,720
I've done it before,
but I have a problem with those things.

1264
01:04:03,721 --> 01:04:04,920
Those,
the Jab,

1265
01:04:04,921 --> 01:04:08,010
your finger.
It's too hard for me to get blood out.

1266
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,090
I do a lot of Kettlebell stuff,
houses on my fingers and my hands,

1267
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:16,220
so I have to actually go into the side 
of my hand to get the blood I have to go

1268
01:04:16,221 --> 01:04:20,790
like above the fingerprints to the upper
skin area and squeeze out the blood.

1269
01:04:20,791 --> 01:04:23,160
It's fucking annoying.
So I know when I'm in it.

1270
01:04:23,370 --> 01:04:26,340
And also I take um,
ketogenic supplements.

1271
01:04:26,341 --> 01:04:30,100
I'll take like a exoticness ketones.
Like there's this stuff called regenix.

1272
01:04:30,450 --> 01:04:32,490
Is there anything that tastes decent?
Yeah.

1273
01:04:32,491 --> 01:04:34,620
Key genex tastes really good,
tastes good.

1274
01:04:34,621 --> 01:04:35,940
It's a good drink.
It's a,

1275
01:04:35,970 --> 01:04:40,970
it's made by Dom D'agostino is one of 
the premier research scientists that's 

1276
01:04:42,001 --> 01:04:45,260
devoted to a ketogenic diet and I heard 
about him from Tim Ferriss,

1277
01:04:45,261 --> 01:04:50,261
his podcast,
and I've read some of his work online 

1278
01:04:50,261 --> 01:04:51,780
and listened to some of his lectures and
talks and um,

1279
01:04:52,020 --> 01:04:54,000
I find it a,
first of all,

1280
01:04:54,350 --> 01:04:59,350
as far as like appetite suppressing.
It's fantastic once your body starts 

1281
01:04:59,350 --> 01:05:01,470
burning fat,
you don't get that weird hunger thing.

1282
01:05:01,620 --> 01:05:02,250
Was it?
Yeah.

1283
01:05:02,251 --> 01:05:05,350
That's the thing because you're not just
mobilizing your fat,

1284
01:05:05,380 --> 01:05:06,780
burning it,
it's all coming out.

1285
01:05:06,781 --> 01:05:09,360
It's not being your bodies and trying to
hold onto it.

1286
01:05:09,420 --> 01:05:11,130
You're not freaking out.
That's the thing.

1287
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,380
It's like when I was on a heavy carb 
diet,

1288
01:05:13,381 --> 01:05:15,550
because I love pasta.
Got It.

1289
01:05:15,551 --> 01:05:18,550
Love like Lasagna and linguine with 
clams

1290
01:05:18,550 --> 01:05:20,170
and it's just like.
I just love it.

1291
01:05:20,171 --> 01:05:23,950
It's fantastic and occasionally on 
indulge as a rare treat now,

1292
01:05:23,951 --> 01:05:28,951
but when I was eating it all the time,
I would have this two or three hour post

1293
01:05:29,230 --> 01:05:31,720
eating thing where that stuff would be 
gone.

1294
01:05:31,900 --> 01:05:35,450
It would all be digested and then I'd be
fucking starving in the next hour or so.

1295
01:05:35,451 --> 01:05:39,640
I remember the old joke about,
you know Chinese like two hours later,

1296
01:05:39,641 --> 01:05:40,970
you're starving.
Yeah,

1297
01:05:40,990 --> 01:05:45,990
I mean that's really what it is.
Your body starts craving those 

1298
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:45,990
carbohydrates as simple car

1299
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:46,240
because you're.
You're.

1300
01:05:46,300 --> 01:05:49,870
You're burning the sugar so you.
The carbs are converted to glucose.

1301
01:05:49,871 --> 01:05:52,060
You're burning the glucose,
you're secreting insulin,

1302
01:05:52,450 --> 01:05:54,960
and the insulin is telling you fat to 
hold onto fat.

1303
01:05:55,260 --> 01:05:58,750
This is my theory anyway,
and it's backed up by the evidence,

1304
01:05:58,751 --> 01:06:01,180
so as the blood sugar starts coming 
down,

1305
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:07,200
your fat tissue is supposed to release 
the fat and allow to come out and be 

1306
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:11,611
oxidized by the same cells and the 
Mitochondria in your cells and this 

1307
01:06:11,611 --> 01:06:15,511
famous krebs cycle that we're all 
supposed to learn in like 11th grade 

1308
01:06:15,511 --> 01:06:18,040
biology and could never remember.
The Krebs cycle is just as happy to burn

1309
01:06:18,310 --> 01:06:22,030
fat as Carbs,
but if the insulin's high,

1310
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,990
it's telling your Mitochondria to burn 
carbs,

1311
01:06:26,350 --> 01:06:31,350
not fat,
and it's telling the fat cells to hold 

1312
01:06:31,350 --> 01:06:31,870
onto fat and now you've just got a 
dearth of fuel.

1313
01:06:31,871 --> 01:06:34,390
It's actually telling your lean tissue 
to hold onto protein,

1314
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:40,320
so now your blood sugar's coming down,
but the insulin still elevated and 

1315
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,080
there's no fuels replacing the blood 
sugar and now you bonk,

1316
01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:47,200
you bonk or you start to panic or you 
know,

1317
01:06:47,201 --> 01:06:49,830
and this is why you know,
I mean,

1318
01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:52,600
once we instituted this low fat thing 
and people said,

1319
01:06:52,601 --> 01:06:54,610
well,
Americans get fat because they snack all

1320
01:06:54,611 --> 01:06:55,060
the time.

1321
01:06:55,060 --> 01:07:00,060
They're constantly grazing where they're
constantly grazing because their cells 

1322
01:07:00,060 --> 01:07:02,971
are running out of fuel.
No matter how much they're eating for 

1323
01:07:02,971 --> 01:07:04,570
breakfast of their low fat stuff,
if they're insulin is elevated,

1324
01:07:04,571 --> 01:07:06,490
their cells are gonna,
wanna burn carbs.

1325
01:07:06,670 --> 01:07:11,670
And this is one of the observations you 
found in the literature in the 1830 

1326
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:14,650
[inaudible].
There was a Hungarian endocrinologist 

1327
01:07:14,650 --> 01:07:16,720
working at northwestern university.
You talked about some of his obese pay.

1328
01:07:16,721 --> 01:07:21,721
He said he had a patient who was an 
obese Alondra's fused to eat laundry 

1329
01:07:21,721 --> 01:07:23,080
starch.
Oh Jesus Christ.

1330
01:07:23,620 --> 01:07:27,210
But that's what the fuck is.
Laundry starch starch.

1331
01:07:27,211 --> 01:07:28,600
It's a carbohydrate,
man.

1332
01:07:28,601 --> 01:07:30,100
I didn't.
I had no idea.

1333
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,310
But the point is,
if your insulin is elevated,

1334
01:07:33,311 --> 01:07:38,311
carbohydrates are your fuel.
It's singling your cells to burn glucose

1335
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,270
and not to burn fat and not the burn 
protein,

1336
01:07:43,540 --> 01:07:46,720
so carbs are your fuel there young.
That's what you need,

1337
01:07:46,721 --> 01:07:51,721
so when you start to get hungry,
you crave that because that's the only 

1338
01:07:51,721 --> 01:07:51,721
thing your cells are going to burn.

1339
01:07:52,180 --> 01:07:56,770
So then if you do like you try a get 
agentic diet or low carb,

1340
01:07:56,771 --> 01:08:01,771
high fat diet,
whatever you wanna call it and you get 

1341
01:08:01,771 --> 01:08:01,840
rid of the carbs and you get an effect,
your insulin comes down.

1342
01:08:01,841 --> 01:08:04,990
Then you get this natural thing where 
you eat your store.

1343
01:08:04,991 --> 01:08:06,760
Some of the fat,
you're burning fat.

1344
01:08:06,761 --> 01:08:08,740
When you're done burning the fat in your
bloodstream,

1345
01:08:08,741 --> 01:08:13,741
the fat comes out of yourselves.
There's just nice cycle that's supposed 

1346
01:08:13,741 --> 01:08:17,101
to happen.
You always have enough fuel available 

1347
01:08:17,101 --> 01:08:19,490
that you know you're not hungry.
That's one of the common phenomenon.

1348
01:08:19,530 --> 01:08:22,220
It's the idea that suddenly I have 
breakfast.

1349
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:27,550
The next thing I know it's two,
three in the afternoon and I'm thinking 

1350
01:08:27,550 --> 01:08:29,900
maybe I should eat lunch just because I 
should eat lunch because I'm hungry.

1351
01:08:29,901 --> 01:08:31,100
Knox,
I'm starving.

1352
01:08:31,101 --> 01:08:32,150
You know,
and they need lunch.

1353
01:08:32,151 --> 01:08:35,330
He'll fall asleep afterwards because 
your body has a fuel supply because your

1354
01:08:35,331 --> 01:08:40,331
body has a concept fullest by yourselves
or being fueled whether you're reading 

1355
01:08:40,331 --> 01:08:43,661
or not.
You got an a fat in your body to live 

1356
01:08:43,661 --> 01:08:44,450
for like a month even if you're 
relatively leave.

1357
01:08:44,660 --> 01:08:49,660
No,
I should point out that some high level 

1358
01:08:49,660 --> 01:08:51,671
athletes are having an issue with this.
Some people that are used to burning off

1359
01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:56,740
massive amounts cowers during the day,
like mixed martial artists and things 

1360
01:08:56,740 --> 01:08:59,831
along those lines.
Some of them adapt to it fine and I 

1361
01:08:59,831 --> 01:09:00,470
haven't had a great time with it and 
find it easier to make weight and easier

1362
01:09:00,471 --> 01:09:03,830
to train,
but other ones say that they have just a

1363
01:09:03,831 --> 01:09:06,410
lack of that extra gear and training.
Now.

1364
01:09:06,460 --> 01:09:09,740
I don't know if they're doing it fully 
disciplined,

1365
01:09:09,741 --> 01:09:11,140
like if they're monitoring their 
ketones.

1366
01:09:11,150 --> 01:09:14,870
If they're really sure about their diet,
they've got it 75 slash 25.

1367
01:09:15,150 --> 01:09:19,680
Some of the earliest studies ever done 
on this was by a guy named Steve Finney,

1368
01:09:19,681 --> 01:09:24,681
who's co author of two books,
the art and science of low carb living 

1369
01:09:24,721 --> 01:09:29,721
in the art and science of low carb 
performance and Steve Back in the late 

1370
01:09:29,721 --> 01:09:30,090
seventies,
early eighties.

1371
01:09:30,091 --> 01:09:31,710
He was at the,
I think it's Vermont,

1372
01:09:32,050 --> 01:09:37,050
where there was a team of people 
studying doing some interesting diet 

1373
01:09:37,050 --> 01:09:40,251
experiments and he put professional bike
racers and ketogenic diets and measured 

1374
01:09:40,681 --> 01:09:45,681
their performance versus their sort of 
traditional high carb diets and he keto 

1375
01:09:45,961 --> 01:09:50,961
adapted them so they were fully adapted 
to burning fat for fuel and from his 

1376
01:09:51,331 --> 01:09:56,331
studies basically he said that they're 
more efficient until they have to push 

1377
01:09:57,811 --> 01:10:02,811
that last sort of five percent out like 
up a mountain marathon or getting to 

1378
01:10:02,811 --> 01:10:07,170
heartbreak hill and the Boston marathon 
and then they lose that extra push.

1379
01:10:07,390 --> 01:10:12,390
See,
that's what makes sense because that 

1380
01:10:12,390 --> 01:10:12,390
extra push is all what mixed martial 
arts is about.

1381
01:10:12,390 --> 01:10:13,510
Yeah.
That extra push is all about.

1382
01:10:13,570 --> 01:10:16,780
I mean in mma it's all about exploding 
when you're tired.

1383
01:10:16,781 --> 01:10:21,781
It's all about being able to manage your
endurance over the course of five 

1384
01:10:21,781 --> 01:10:26,011
minutes,
but figuring out these sprint times and 

1385
01:10:26,011 --> 01:10:26,011
being able to squeeze the most out of 
those two.

1386
01:10:26,011 --> 01:10:27,060
Break your opponent.
Yeah.

1387
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,650
It's a lot of times it's based on how 
much you have in the tank.

1388
01:10:29,660 --> 01:10:34,660
Yeah,
well that's the thing and I mean a lot 

1389
01:10:34,660 --> 01:10:34,660
of it you should still.
You can still,

1390
01:10:34,660 --> 01:10:37,340
even though it's funny,
carb loading when it was first a sort of

1391
01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:41,220
perfected was the developed in 
Scandinavia by.

1392
01:10:41,221 --> 01:10:46,221
I'm in back in the fifties,
I think it was by the coaches have cross

1393
01:10:46,461 --> 01:10:50,660
country skiers,
which is an incredibly like physically a

1394
01:10:50,730 --> 01:10:52,040
burden,
some brutal,

1395
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:53,060
brutal,
so.

1396
01:10:53,061 --> 01:10:58,061
And they trained all year long on low 
carb diets so they would train on low 

1397
01:10:58,061 --> 01:11:00,800
carb diets and the idea was they would 
eat the plate of pasta,

1398
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:06,000
you know,
the race and they would maximize their 

1399
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,891
glycogen stores and they're living in 
their cells and then when they needed 

1400
01:11:08,891 --> 01:11:08,891
it,
it was there.

1401
01:11:08,891 --> 01:11:10,000
And is that have been proven efficient?
Eh?

1402
01:11:10,001 --> 01:11:12,680
I mean it was a great way for them,
but then it was.

1403
01:11:12,681 --> 01:11:17,681
But again,
the point is at reading the low carb 

1404
01:11:17,681 --> 01:11:19,401
diets,
the until the year and then once 

1405
01:11:19,401 --> 01:11:22,730
marathoner started doing everyone 
thought with marathon and she'd eat 

1406
01:11:22,730 --> 01:11:25,500
carbs the night before a marathon,
we should always eat carbs.

1407
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:28,500
And then this idea that carpenter 
heart-healthy came in and they just took

1408
01:11:28,501 --> 01:11:29,550
over the world.
So,

1409
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:34,760
but my area of expertise is by no means 
like high performance athletes.

1410
01:11:35,310 --> 01:11:37,230
There are people out there who could 
talk to you for,

1411
01:11:37,650 --> 01:11:39,930
you know,
and I'll recommend some when we get off.

1412
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,790
Um,
but you know,

1413
01:11:43,820 --> 01:11:46,350
it's interesting because even when you 
read the debates about this stuff,

1414
01:11:46,351 --> 01:11:50,280
what the high performance athletes,
I see this and like outside magazine and

1415
01:11:50,281 --> 01:11:55,281
runner's world stuff.
So there's this fundamental argument 

1416
01:11:55,281 --> 01:11:55,281
that,
look,

1417
01:11:55,281 --> 01:11:55,950
we don't get facts.
We too much.

1418
01:11:55,951 --> 01:12:00,951
We get fat because of carbohydrates in 
our diet causes hormonal metabolic 

1419
01:12:00,951 --> 01:12:03,960
dysregulation that makes us store 
calories of fat and our fat cells.

1420
01:12:05,730 --> 01:12:10,730
And that implies that the healthiest 
diet for those of us who get fat or 

1421
01:12:10,730 --> 01:12:11,420
diets absent,
you know,

1422
01:12:11,430 --> 01:12:16,130
easily digestible carbs and sugars.
But if athletes,

1423
01:12:16,170 --> 01:12:21,170
very high performing athletes eat those 
diets and don't perform better than 

1424
01:12:21,170 --> 01:12:25,221
before,
it's not a good diet and therefore all 

1425
01:12:25,221 --> 01:12:26,400
the rest of it is wrong and that's just 
crazy.

1426
01:12:26,970 --> 01:12:31,970
You know,
it's sort of what Lance Armstrong needs 

1427
01:12:31,970 --> 01:12:32,640
to win the Tour de France,
whatever it is,

1428
01:12:32,940 --> 01:12:35,430
doesn't tell me a hell of a lot about 
why,

1429
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:41,000
you know,
Shirley Maclaine talk weighs 300 pounds 

1430
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:43,680
and can't lose that weight unless she 
gives up carbohydrates,

1431
01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:46,560
you know,
and all of that gets confounded in these

1432
01:12:46,561 --> 01:12:51,561
discussions.
And one of the things I'm constantly 

1433
01:12:51,561 --> 01:12:54,021
doing when I talk about this stuff 
saying you got to keep your eye on a 

1434
01:12:54,021 --> 01:12:57,440
question because we were all given 
different answers to different 

1435
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:01,491
questions.
So what's the best diet for winning the 

1436
01:13:01,491 --> 01:13:04,161
Tour de France or mma fight probably got
a lot of the same themes that I'm 

1437
01:13:06,481 --> 01:13:11,481
talking about.
But even then funny when sugar came in 

1438
01:13:11,481 --> 01:13:16,400
beginning around the 18 nineties and it 
was a cheap and easily available and 

1439
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:17,600
beach hooker was available element 
Germany.

1440
01:13:17,650 --> 01:13:22,650
The German army started testing sugar as
a performance enhancer and actually 

1441
01:13:22,650 --> 01:13:27,351
doing sort of trials where they would 
send troops out with or without sugar 

1442
01:13:27,351 --> 01:13:27,351
for,
you know,

1443
01:13:27,351 --> 01:13:32,300
30 day marches,
and then they would see when they came 

1444
01:13:32,300 --> 01:13:35,571
back,
which ones had more energy and the ones 

1445
01:13:35,571 --> 01:13:35,571
who ate more sugar had more energy and 
they,

1446
01:13:35,571 --> 01:13:37,350
a mountain climbers started using it.

1447
01:13:37,380 --> 01:13:40,800
Um,
crew coach has started testing it on the

1448
01:13:40,801 --> 01:13:42,780
crew,
like rowing back then was a,

1449
01:13:42,860 --> 01:13:44,700
among the most popular sports in the 
world.

1450
01:13:44,701 --> 01:13:49,701
And so they would give their rowers a 
sugar and see if they perform better,

1451
01:13:50,191 --> 01:13:55,191
which they inevitably did.
It was a great performance enhancing 

1452
01:13:55,191 --> 01:13:55,191
drug.
It's a psychoactive drug.

1453
01:13:55,191 --> 01:13:56,730
It kills pain.
It is,

1454
01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:57,480
you know,
the joke.

1455
01:13:57,481 --> 01:13:59,340
It's quick energy.
Sugar kills pain.

1456
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:01,560
Yeah.
It's why we give it the kids,

1457
01:14:01,590 --> 01:14:05,190
you know,
if your baby was he circumcised.

1458
01:14:06,420 --> 01:14:09,090
I've girls then okay.
Not an issue.

1459
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:11,790
Boys circumcise them.
Give them a little bit of sugar.

1460
01:14:12,330 --> 01:14:14,480
You never heard of that though?
But yeah,

1461
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:17,500
it's a distraction.
It's a pain killer.

1462
01:14:17,501 --> 01:14:22,501
I mean,
it's a wonderful psychoactive 

1463
01:14:22,501 --> 01:14:23,680
properties.
No short term side effects.

1464
01:14:23,681 --> 01:14:24,510
You know,
me and me,

1465
01:14:24,511 --> 01:14:27,520
you're talking about must be talking 
about a very minor if you also,

1466
01:14:27,521 --> 01:14:30,070
if you start with populations that never
consumed sugar,

1467
01:14:30,420 --> 01:14:32,410
babies never consumed it before you 
came.

1468
01:14:32,420 --> 01:14:37,420
A little sugar,
like on day three you can circumcise 

1469
01:14:37,420 --> 01:14:37,420
them and then they're just tripping.
They're fine.

1470
01:14:37,420 --> 01:14:37,880
Hey,
cool.

1471
01:14:37,881 --> 01:14:40,070
I'll take it off.
I don't need to live with what,

1472
01:14:40,390 --> 01:14:41,770
what am I gonna use that for.
I mean,

1473
01:14:41,771 --> 01:14:43,180
when you know,
you're three days old,

1474
01:14:43,181 --> 01:14:44,440
you got no imagination.

1475
01:14:45,660 --> 01:14:50,660
Wow.
We could talk about um,

1476
01:14:52,290 --> 01:14:53,970
the uh,
yeah.

1477
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:55,020
So anyway,
that's the thing,

1478
01:14:55,021 --> 01:14:55,220
I,

1479
01:14:56,150 --> 01:14:59,340
it's that it could be a performance 
enhancing drug

1480
01:15:00,550 --> 01:15:04,750
that would enhance the performance of 
athletes at the highest level.

1481
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:08,870
Doesn't mean it doesn't have longterm 
chronic affects,

1482
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:11,530
just like any other performance 
enhancing drug.

1483
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:16,560
So there's a big difference between 
people that are like say climbing k two 

1484
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,160
that need something to push them forward
versus the average person who likes to 

1485
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:23,200
play Racquetball and works a day job and
you know,

1486
01:15:23,201 --> 01:15:28,201
and that kind of a diet and think about,
I mean the athletic trainers who have 

1487
01:15:28,201 --> 01:15:32,281
been telling you,
I mean the guys you work out with your 

1488
01:15:32,281 --> 01:15:32,281
whole,
you know,

1489
01:15:32,281 --> 01:15:35,331
the lean muscular guys who never had an 
ounce of fat in their lives and they're 

1490
01:15:35,380 --> 01:15:40,380
saying we should all wheat carbs that we
should always sugar because I look how 

1491
01:15:40,380 --> 01:15:42,420
well I process it.
And my argument is like,

1492
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:47,590
if you think your body works the same 
way as your cousin who weighs 300 pounds

1493
01:15:47,591 --> 01:15:52,240
and the only differences you exercise 
more like that's a serious delusion.

1494
01:15:52,660 --> 01:15:55,300
And you know,
we're different people.

1495
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:56,860
I don't know.
You have siblings?

1496
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,740
Yes.
Are you all built in like a sister?

1497
01:16:01,540 --> 01:16:03,030
I mean,
she's mean she's,

1498
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:04,870
I mean she,
she works out a little bit.

1499
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:06,250
Not,
not like I do,

1500
01:16:06,251 --> 01:16:08,740
but you know,
we have good genes in that regard.

1501
01:16:08,940 --> 01:16:10,120
But I mean,
when I was a kid,

1502
01:16:10,121 --> 01:16:12,910
my older brother,
a mathematician,

1503
01:16:12,940 --> 01:16:17,110
brilliant guy,
but he was always taller,

1504
01:16:17,140 --> 01:16:19,660
leaner,
like you could see the veins on his arms

1505
01:16:19,661 --> 01:16:23,140
and the ripples on his stomach just 
seven years old by a lot by.

1506
01:16:23,150 --> 01:16:26,350
It wasn't genetic because I clearly had 
the same gene to different body types.

1507
01:16:26,351 --> 01:16:27,380
But they vary,
right?

1508
01:16:27,390 --> 01:16:29,260
Yeah.
So when he got to college,

1509
01:16:29,261 --> 01:16:34,261
he was a rower.
He couldn't get over one 95 no matter 

1510
01:16:34,261 --> 01:16:34,540
how much he ate.
And he used to say

1511
01:16:36,930 --> 01:16:39,090
never forget this,
I'll never get stuffed or just get bored

1512
01:16:39,091 --> 01:16:43,170
of eating after a few hours.
And I was shorter,

1513
01:16:43,380 --> 01:16:44,940
thicker,
you know,

1514
01:16:44,941 --> 01:16:49,080
I put on weight relatively easily.
By the time I was in high school,

1515
01:16:49,081 --> 01:16:52,350
I weighed one 95 when I was playing 
division two,

1516
01:16:52,351 --> 01:16:55,410
college football,
I could get up to 2:37

1517
01:16:56,030 --> 01:16:59,490
and no matter how much I ate,
I could not get above 2:37

1518
01:16:59,491 --> 01:17:01,110
and I was three inches shorter than he 
was.

1519
01:17:01,111 --> 01:17:03,180
We just had different body types.
We,

1520
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:08,240
I've built muscle easier than he did.
And I put on fat easier than he did.

1521
01:17:08,270 --> 01:17:13,270
It had nothing to with how much we both 
ate as much as we could in fact dinners 

1522
01:17:13,311 --> 01:17:15,860
in our family.
I like 18 minutes because it was,

1523
01:17:15,950 --> 01:17:18,090
you know,
my mother was put down like you know,

1524
01:17:18,110 --> 01:17:23,110
enough for,
for eight people and if I didn't trust 

1525
01:17:23,110 --> 01:17:23,110
my brother,
yeah,

1526
01:17:23,110 --> 01:17:24,490
exactly.
Started seven over seven,

1527
01:17:24,500 --> 01:17:26,300
18,
no matter what she served.

1528
01:17:28,270 --> 01:17:33,270
When you're looking at all this data and
you're putting together this book and 

1529
01:17:33,341 --> 01:17:37,520
you realize that you're going to drop 
this mindblower on people that we're,

1530
01:17:37,550 --> 01:17:42,550
we've been essentially misled by almost 
every established organization when it 

1531
01:17:44,441 --> 01:17:49,441
comes to health and diet.
How are you feeling when you're about to

1532
01:17:49,631 --> 01:17:51,130
release it?
So you has a 10.

1533
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:52,960
Is this one thing we like?
Jesus Christ?

1534
01:17:52,961 --> 01:17:54,400
Am I just do?
I mean,

1535
01:17:54,401 --> 01:17:57,760
did you have this like incredible desire
to like double check,

1536
01:17:57,761 --> 01:17:59,350
triple check,
quadruple check?

1537
01:17:59,980 --> 01:18:04,220
No,
but I should have the um.

1538
01:18:04,270 --> 01:18:06,140
Okay.
So the first time this happened,

1539
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:12,040
so the articles in science for whatever 
we're using then create all that much 

1540
01:18:12,741 --> 01:18:13,520
controversy.
I mean,

1541
01:18:13,521 --> 01:18:18,521
they won awards and reporting awards and
know they were in books about the best 

1542
01:18:18,521 --> 01:18:21,770
science writing,
but nobody really cared.

1543
01:18:21,771 --> 01:18:26,771
I mean there was enough controversy 
about whether this low fat diet for 

1544
01:18:26,771 --> 01:18:27,920
instance,
was the right thing that I do.

1545
01:18:27,921 --> 01:18:29,930
This New York Times magazine article 
where,

1546
01:18:31,270 --> 01:18:34,640
you know,
the idea was to go out and find out that

1547
01:18:34,700 --> 01:18:39,700
this was pitched in 2001 and the,
our awareness of the obesity epidemic 

1548
01:18:40,251 --> 01:18:45,251
was only about three years old and you 
could pinpoint it in time from between 

1549
01:18:45,251 --> 01:18:47,600
the late 19 seventies to the early 19 
nineties,

1550
01:18:47,601 --> 01:18:51,500
two surveys that were done.
And during those two surveys,

1551
01:18:51,950 --> 01:18:54,650
the prevalence of obesity almost almost 
doubled.

1552
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,020
United States,
the percentage of Americans.

1553
01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:59,840
So you'd asked the question what caused 
it?

1554
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,980
And I have two hypotheses.
One was we had shifted the 19 sixties,

1555
01:19:04,010 --> 01:19:09,010
that conventional wisdom was that 
carbohydrates are uniquely fattening.

1556
01:19:09,820 --> 01:19:14,820
Like one our line,
I quote and two of my books was the 

1557
01:19:14,820 --> 01:19:17,740
first sentence of a British journal of 
Nutrition Article Nineteen Sixty three 

1558
01:19:17,740 --> 01:19:20,210
written by one of the two leading 
British Dietitians was every woman knows

1559
01:19:20,211 --> 01:19:23,690
carbohydrates are fattening and every 
woman knew this car,

1560
01:19:23,691 --> 01:19:24,290
you know,
bread,

1561
01:19:24,291 --> 01:19:25,370
pasta,
potatoes,

1562
01:19:25,371 --> 01:19:26,230
rice,
beer,

1563
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:27,180
sweets,
you know,

1564
01:19:27,270 --> 01:19:29,310
they'd go right to your hips.
That was a.

1565
01:19:30,170 --> 01:19:35,170
and then we turned them into a heart 
healthy diet foods by the 19 eighties 

1566
01:19:35,170 --> 01:19:38,640
and that happened between was 
institutionalized between 1977 and 1984 

1567
01:19:39,141 --> 01:19:44,141
and [inaudible] 84 like the New York 
Times health reporters writing or Beth 

1568
01:19:44,331 --> 01:19:49,331
selling diet health cooking book called 
the Good Food Book.

1569
01:19:49,341 --> 01:19:50,240
And she's saying,
yeah,

1570
01:19:50,241 --> 01:19:55,241
we used to think carbs are fattening,
but now we should eat pasta and bread 

1571
01:19:55,241 --> 01:19:55,241
all the time.

1572
01:19:55,370 --> 01:19:58,220
So that was one hypothesis.
The other was high fructose corn syrup,

1573
01:19:58,221 --> 01:20:03,221
which came in in 1977 and had sort of 
replaced sugar and Pepsi and coke by 

1574
01:20:03,221 --> 01:20:04,980
1984.
Anyways,

1575
01:20:05,030 --> 01:20:10,030
I'm doing that piece.
I realized I find stumbled upon five 

1576
01:20:10,030 --> 01:20:12,981
studies of the Atkins Diet.
So the Atkins Diet is the scientists 

1577
01:20:13,651 --> 01:20:18,651
call the anomalous observation.
So when you're always looking for in 

1578
01:20:18,651 --> 01:20:18,780
sciences,
the anomalous observation,

1579
01:20:18,781 --> 01:20:23,160
that's the thing that doesn't fit with 
any of your beliefs,

1580
01:20:23,790 --> 01:20:26,310
you know,
you've got a theory that says this,

1581
01:20:26,311 --> 01:20:30,480
and then you find that and,
and now you've got a way to come up with

1582
01:20:30,481 --> 01:20:32,250
a better theory because you got 
something else,

1583
01:20:32,251 --> 01:20:37,251
you have to explain that you're present 
theory doesn't and it's the anomalous 

1584
01:20:37,251 --> 01:20:41,001
observations that move science forward.
It's the thing that just doesn't fit 

1585
01:20:41,001 --> 01:20:44,181
with your belief.
So here's the Diet trials where he got 

1586
01:20:44,181 --> 01:20:46,350
the atkins diet high in fat,
high in saturated fat.

1587
01:20:46,350 --> 01:20:47,790
So she'll give you heart disease,
you know,

1588
01:20:47,791 --> 01:20:49,980
double quarter pounder with cheese,
no bun,

1589
01:20:49,981 --> 01:20:53,070
lobster Newberg,
know eggs,

1590
01:20:53,071 --> 01:20:54,480
bacon,
sausage,

1591
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:57,270
and you're allowed to eat as much as you
want.

1592
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:01,350
Okay?
So it's not a calorie restricted diet,

1593
01:21:01,351 --> 01:21:03,450
it's Ad Libitum.
As long as you don't eat carbs,

1594
01:21:03,451 --> 01:21:07,650
you could have eight eggs for breakfast 
and a rash for a bacon and you know,

1595
01:21:07,710 --> 01:21:11,150
whole chicken for lunch.
So the other theories,

1596
01:21:11,340 --> 01:21:13,320
theories of fat,
it's going to cause heart disease.

1597
01:21:13,321 --> 01:21:18,321
And the other theory is that the eat as 
much as you want you to have a fat 

1598
01:21:18,321 --> 01:21:18,321
person and as much as want,
they're going to get fatter,

1599
01:21:18,321 --> 01:21:23,301
right?
Because we think they got fat to begin 

1600
01:21:23,301 --> 01:21:25,371
with because they ate too much.
And then you compare those people to 

1601
01:21:25,371 --> 01:21:27,410
people you put on an American heart 
association,

1602
01:21:27,420 --> 01:21:31,500
low fat diet,
and you tell them to calorie restrict my

1603
01:21:31,501 --> 01:21:32,740
repeating myself.
No,

1604
01:21:32,750 --> 01:21:33,970
go ahead.
No,

1605
01:21:34,050 --> 01:21:34,350
go ahead.

1606
01:21:34,410 --> 01:21:39,410
You know the ice cream,
scoop size tuna salad on the lettuce 

1607
01:21:39,410 --> 01:21:41,940
patty thing that we all went through at 
some point in their life.

1608
01:21:41,970 --> 01:21:45,270
Maybe not you if you're naturally lane.
Anyway,

1609
01:21:45,450 --> 01:21:49,350
it all five of these trials and they'd 
been done but not published yet,

1610
01:21:49,351 --> 01:21:51,150
and they'd been presented at 
conferences.

1611
01:21:51,450 --> 01:21:56,450
The people on the Atkins Diet not only 
lost more weight than the ones on their 

1612
01:21:56,770 --> 01:21:59,090
calorie restricted American heart 
association,

1613
01:21:59,100 --> 01:22:02,160
low fat diet that a whole American 
people were supposed to eating.

1614
01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:08,350
So that refutes the eating too much 
hypothesis because these guys on the 

1615
01:22:08,431 --> 01:22:10,260
atkins diet can eat as much as they 
want,

1616
01:22:11,340 --> 01:22:13,590
but their heart disease risk factors are
better.

1617
01:22:14,580 --> 01:22:19,580
Okay?
So they're supposed to die of heart 

1618
01:22:19,580 --> 01:22:19,580
disease,
you know,

1619
01:22:19,580 --> 01:22:20,850
eat the bake and a clogs your arteries.
You fall over dead,

1620
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:26,720
but they were healthier.
So it refutes the heart disease thing 

1621
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:27,060
to.
So there's the anomalous observation.

1622
01:22:27,420 --> 01:22:32,420
How do you explain that?
If dietary fat causes heart disease and 

1623
01:22:33,060 --> 01:22:37,110
eating too much cause obesity.
So I write this article,

1624
01:22:37,890 --> 01:22:42,890
I lead it with this young Harvard 
endocrinologist pediatrician who's 

1625
01:22:44,041 --> 01:22:47,850
feeding low carb diets to his patients 
at Boston Children's hospital.

1626
01:22:47,851 --> 01:22:50,490
He's like politically acceptable.
He's sincere,

1627
01:22:50,491 --> 01:22:53,850
he's at Harvard.
I want to ease people into it.

1628
01:22:55,660 --> 01:23:00,660
And then I talked about the Atkins thing
down below and how Atkins had gotten 

1629
01:23:00,660 --> 01:23:04,431
pilloried back in the late sixties,
early seventies for telling people they 

1630
01:23:04,431 --> 01:23:06,340
could eat these high fat diets because 
we thought,

1631
01:23:06,610 --> 01:23:11,610
you know,
and what these studies showed and the 

1632
01:23:11,610 --> 01:23:14,221
editors at the New York Times magazine 
said Atkins is the elephant in the 

1633
01:23:14,221 --> 01:23:16,810
living room.
Like get rid of this Harvard guy.

1634
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:19,510
Put them down below.
Lead with the Atkins.

1635
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:20,890
Okay.
I mean,

1636
01:23:20,891 --> 01:23:23,020
they know how to get people to read an 
article.

1637
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:29,000
So I write this lead,
I read it to my wife and a chair of the 

1638
01:23:29,530 --> 01:23:30,940
American Medical Association,
the American Heart Association,

1639
01:23:30,941 --> 01:23:35,410
have a find yourself standing naked 
nightmare in times square,

1640
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:40,440
excuse me,
find yourself standing naked in times 

1641
01:23:40,440 --> 01:23:40,440
square nightmare.

1642
01:23:40,440 --> 01:23:44,250
It's that all the advice they've been 
giving to the American people about a 

1643
01:23:44,250 --> 01:23:47,701
healthy diet for the last 50 years is 
wrong and maybe atkins was right all 

1644
01:23:47,711 --> 01:23:52,711
along and maybe both and I read it to my
wife and I say they will never run this 

1645
01:23:52,711 --> 01:23:57,271
in a million years and I emailed it to 
the editors and they don't change a word

1646
01:23:58,690 --> 01:24:03,690
and that's the lead of the magazine 
article and then they put this picture 

1647
01:24:03,690 --> 01:24:05,530
on the cover of the magazine,
which is kind of cheap looking,

1648
01:24:05,650 --> 01:24:10,000
porterhouse steak.
They didn't go to photographer to make a

1649
01:24:10,001 --> 01:24:11,810
delicious,
you know,

1650
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:17,040
and it's got a pat of butter and the 
headline is what if it's all been a big 

1651
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,230
fat lie and I didn't stop them from 
doing it,

1652
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,560
but I didn't know what to expect.
I knew it was going to be controversial.

1653
01:24:23,561 --> 01:24:26,530
Getting back to your question,
I tend to answer long winded.

1654
01:24:27,430 --> 01:24:32,430
I knew it was going to be controversial.
I knew it was going to be the most 

1655
01:24:32,430 --> 01:24:35,170
controversial article they do run into a
friend of mine 10 years earlier,

1656
01:24:35,171 --> 01:24:40,171
had written an article about how 
recycling is a complete waste of time 

1657
01:24:40,171 --> 01:24:42,700
and money.
I had no idea what was going to happen,

1658
01:24:43,390 --> 01:24:46,900
no idea.
And I compare it to my boxing career.

1659
01:24:47,540 --> 01:24:50,050
Okay.
When I was younger,

1660
01:24:50,051 --> 01:24:51,250
I had,
when I was at Harvard,

1661
01:24:51,251 --> 01:24:52,930
I,
my best friend was a boxer.

1662
01:24:52,931 --> 01:24:57,931
He was a street Friday from Manhattan,
a Puerto Rican kid and a wonderful guy.

1663
01:24:58,091 --> 01:25:00,450
I mean everyone school loved them and 
then uh,

1664
01:25:00,550 --> 01:25:05,050
he taught me how to box and we used to 
box and the gym and I would do this sort

1665
01:25:05,051 --> 01:25:09,250
of Muhammad Ali imitation because that's
what I thought boxing was in 1977.

1666
01:25:09,251 --> 01:25:13,660
Then he actually had an amateur fight in
low mass and March 19,

1667
01:25:13,661 --> 01:25:15,740
77,
he got killed in the flesh,

1668
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:16,360
Jesus.

1669
01:25:17,370 --> 01:25:19,630
And of course me being young and stupid,
um,

1670
01:25:19,810 --> 01:25:24,810
uh,
it's not enough to prevent me from 

1671
01:25:24,810 --> 01:25:24,810
continuing.
So when I moved to New York,

1672
01:25:24,810 --> 01:25:25,120
watch the fight.
Yeah,

1673
01:25:25,121 --> 01:25:26,050
we were there.
There.

1674
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:31,080
We didn't know what happened to him.
He danced into a right hook and went 

1675
01:25:32,051 --> 01:25:33,880
over backwards.
Like it was frozen.

1676
01:25:34,020 --> 01:25:37,510
It was a plank of wood and his head 
bounced off the Mat.

1677
01:25:37,540 --> 01:25:39,340
That is how I remember it.
I got notes.

1678
01:25:39,410 --> 01:25:44,410
My memory is right.
It's one of the scariest things is when 

1679
01:25:44,410 --> 01:25:46,210
the head bounces one of the worst ways 
to get knocked out.

1680
01:25:46,211 --> 01:25:48,940
Yeah.
And we knew it was bad,

1681
01:25:48,941 --> 01:25:50,500
but we didn't know.
He didn't die.

1682
01:25:50,501 --> 01:25:53,680
He went into was in a coma.
They took him to the hospital.

1683
01:25:53,681 --> 01:25:58,681
We went all home and we.
And then a week later there's just no 

1684
01:25:58,681 --> 01:25:59,980
brain activity and they.
This how I remember it.

1685
01:25:59,981 --> 01:26:02,330
I hope I'm doing them justice by getting
the memory right.

1686
01:26:03,980 --> 01:26:08,980
Of course,
nowadays you can google it and read 

1687
01:26:08,980 --> 01:26:09,050
about the article in the Boston Globe 
and it wasn't article.

1688
01:26:09,380 --> 01:26:10,550
Anyway,
I moved to New York.

1689
01:26:10,551 --> 01:26:15,551
I'd go to journalism school.
I have a friend who is norman mailer's 

1690
01:26:15,551 --> 01:26:18,941
nephew,
and Norman mailer had a group of people 

1691
01:26:18,941 --> 01:26:21,980
used to get together at the gramercy gym
on Saturday mornings in New York.

1692
01:26:22,020 --> 01:26:27,020
Um,
this another long winded answer to your 

1693
01:26:27,020 --> 01:26:27,020
question.
I talked about shaggy dog story.

1694
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:30,260
So every Saturday morning we meet at the
gramercy gym,

1695
01:26:30,261 --> 01:26:35,261
which is the 14th and around Lexington 
when it was back then it was a very 

1696
01:26:35,261 --> 01:26:36,620
seedy neighborhood and it was,
you know,

1697
01:26:36,621 --> 01:26:38,130
a classic gym.
Yeah.

1698
01:26:38,250 --> 01:26:43,250
Classic boxing and some really,
like Ryan O'Neal was buddies with Norman

1699
01:26:43,401 --> 01:26:46,730
would show up once every three months.
And there was a guy who ran,

1700
01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:49,310
I forget,
it was a porn magazine that was sold the

1701
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:54,520
Brown paper bag.
He would show up and then a half dozen 

1702
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:57,700
other people I had this friend Steve 
Chow went on to,

1703
01:26:57,710 --> 01:26:58,880
uh,
um,

1704
01:26:59,480 --> 01:27:01,930
become uh,
barry diller's righthand man.

1705
01:27:01,930 --> 01:27:06,930
And yeah,
Hollywood would actually been the 

1706
01:27:06,930 --> 01:27:08,330
Valedictorian of our class at Harvard 
and we would spar and um,

1707
01:27:09,350 --> 01:27:14,350
I enjoyed it and I got into it and I was
getting the crap beat out of me first.

1708
01:27:14,931 --> 01:27:16,460
But eventually I,
you know,

1709
01:27:16,461 --> 01:27:21,461
I kept doing it.
And then I decided to fight in the New 

1710
01:27:21,461 --> 01:27:21,461
York golden gloves and write about it 
for playboy.

1711
01:27:21,830 --> 01:27:23,240
So the piece was called,
um,

1712
01:27:23,241 --> 01:27:25,920
what a life is a standing eight count.
Hello?

1713
01:27:26,450 --> 01:27:28,160
I'm sorry.
But this is after your friend died.

1714
01:27:28,190 --> 01:27:30,170
This is after my friend died.
Wow.

1715
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:35,200
So anyway,
the point is kind of like going from 

1716
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:39,611
sparring to your first match now you had
a much more successful career than I 

1717
01:27:40,131 --> 01:27:42,760
did.
I had two flights and I'm,

1718
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:48,240
I'm one of the first one because the 
Irish cop I was fighting got tired of 

1719
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:49,760
punching me and I finally thought if I 
hit him back,

1720
01:27:49,761 --> 01:27:51,040
maybe that'll slow them down.

1721
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:56,080
It worked.
But that transition from sparring to 

1722
01:27:56,510 --> 01:27:59,930
being in the ring and having someone to 
beat the crap out of you is like,

1723
01:27:59,931 --> 01:28:04,931
you just can't,
you cannot conceive of what it's going 

1724
01:28:04,931 --> 01:28:06,700
to be like until you do it.
Right.

1725
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:12,240
I mean if you can remember back to your 
first flight and you might've been more 

1726
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:13,820
of a natural animal than I am.
I'm kind of a cerebral guy.

1727
01:28:13,821 --> 01:28:17,420
I think too much,
but that's what it was like getting this

1728
01:28:17,421 --> 01:28:22,421
article published.
Like I knew it was going to be 

1729
01:28:22,421 --> 01:28:24,251
controversial.
You want me to tell you the end of the 

1730
01:28:24,251 --> 01:28:24,251
boxing story?
Sure.

1731
01:28:24,251 --> 01:28:28,830
And one of my first fight,
I knocked out this cop from Staten 

1732
01:28:29,260 --> 01:28:30,050
Island.
Then I was done.

1733
01:28:30,051 --> 01:28:31,820
I didn't want to do it again.
I didn't enjoy winning.

1734
01:28:31,821 --> 01:28:35,390
I did not enjoy knocking them out.
I didn't like anything about it.

1735
01:28:35,391 --> 01:28:40,391
This nose was not built for getting 
pummeled and I was not a very good 

1736
01:28:40,391 --> 01:28:40,880
defensive fighter.

1737
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:43,750
And then the second fight I went up 
against the guy who wanted,

1738
01:28:44,070 --> 01:28:47,000
you know,
this was the not the open category,

1739
01:28:47,001 --> 01:28:52,001
the 10 flights or less category and he 
knocked me out in a minute and 37 

1740
01:28:52,001 --> 01:28:54,130
seconds.
I had a friend who,

1741
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:59,200
a photographer for life who came.
Norman mailer was at the flight to 

1742
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,860
Norman sitting there watching me get the
crap beat out of me and my friend was a 

1743
01:29:02,860 --> 01:29:07,430
photographer.
Didn't have time to get her lens cap 

1744
01:29:07,430 --> 01:29:07,430
off.
Basically she,

1745
01:29:07,430 --> 01:29:11,990
you know,
so that I have a photo that ran in 

1746
01:29:11,990 --> 01:29:13,800
playboy with the article which was,
could she bring level when you see these

1747
01:29:13,860 --> 01:29:17,010
two big feet sticking up in this body,
prone on the ring,

1748
01:29:17,190 --> 01:29:20,580
you know,
did you get knocked unconscious when you

1749
01:29:20,581 --> 01:29:25,581
woke up?
How terrified were you thinking at all 

1750
01:29:25,581 --> 01:29:25,581
about your friend who died?
No,

1751
01:29:25,650 --> 01:29:26,310
that's the funny thing.

1752
01:29:26,310 --> 01:29:29,250
Not at all,
but I thought about it afterwards,

1753
01:29:29,251 --> 01:29:32,580
so it's interesting.
Apparently,

1754
01:29:32,581 --> 01:29:33,960
you know,
I woke up in the ring.

1755
01:29:33,961 --> 01:29:36,450
I mean I stood up,
they raised the other guy's hand.

1756
01:29:36,451 --> 01:29:39,030
I don't remember any of that.
My memory of the fight at all,

1757
01:29:39,510 --> 01:29:44,510
a little bit.
A little bit of like these roundhouses 

1758
01:29:44,510 --> 01:29:48,890
whizzing by my head and I had this 
tendency I would like pull my head back 

1759
01:29:48,890 --> 01:29:50,820
so I'm pulling my hands down instead of 
terrible instinct.

1760
01:29:51,110 --> 01:29:56,110
Natural for some strange reason.
It's very difficult to teach people to 

1761
01:29:56,110 --> 01:29:56,460
not do the worst thing.
Yeah.

1762
01:29:56,461 --> 01:29:59,250
And you know,
if my career had lasted past that fight,

1763
01:29:59,251 --> 01:30:02,100
my very good coach would have broken it 
down to me.

1764
01:30:02,110 --> 01:30:04,290
Would've said don't ever do that again.
And you know.

1765
01:30:04,980 --> 01:30:05,550
Anyway,
I,

1766
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:10,880
my memory is I,
I'm sitting outside the ring and the 

1767
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:11,850
doctor is saying to me,
do you know what your name is?

1768
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:16,880
Do you know what you know?
So there's a period of my life was 

1769
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:16,880
clearly conscious,
but I have no memory of it.

1770
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:18,780
Um,
then they,

1771
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,710
they make you go to the hospital 
afterwards to make sure you're not going

1772
01:30:21,711 --> 01:30:26,711
to die overnight.
And that was in the emergency room and 

1773
01:30:26,711 --> 01:30:30,350
there was a guy next to me who had had a
motorcycle accident and cabot cut him 

1774
01:30:30,350 --> 01:30:31,850
off and he had the same.
We were talking,

1775
01:30:31,860 --> 01:30:35,820
he was about my age Hispanic and he,
um,

1776
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:41,120
you know,
this thing where there's no way you say 

1777
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:44,901
the next thing I remember.
And then there's this awareness that 

1778
01:30:44,901 --> 01:30:47,040
there could vary.
It could very well have never been in.

1779
01:30:47,041 --> 01:30:48,600
Next thing I remember,
you know,

1780
01:30:48,620 --> 01:30:52,890
the moment could have just ended there 
and that's what I started thinking about

1781
01:30:52,891 --> 01:30:57,891
my friend.
But I was too busy getting mad at the 

1782
01:30:57,891 --> 01:31:00,621
hospital attended,
who kept telling me that my nose was 

1783
01:31:00,621 --> 01:31:01,140
broken and I kept saying,
my nose isn't broken,

1784
01:31:01,290 --> 01:31:01,890
asshole.

1785
01:31:02,010 --> 01:31:07,010
This is the notes.
I was born with a man that's a broken 

1786
01:31:07,010 --> 01:31:07,290
nose,
know broken nose when I see one,

1787
01:31:07,740 --> 01:31:09,810
but anyway,
that's,

1788
01:31:09,811 --> 01:31:12,030
that was a little bit.
So I published this article.

1789
01:31:12,031 --> 01:31:17,031
I've got no idea what's going to happen 
and you know,

1790
01:31:17,190 --> 01:31:19,580
it was like just the universe.
I mean,

1791
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:25,040
first of all,
there's an enormous amount of media 

1792
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:26,811
attention,
so I'm doing tv shows and radio shows 

1793
01:31:26,811 --> 01:31:29,391
and people are writing about me,
but people are attacking me because the 

1794
01:31:29,391 --> 01:31:30,510
implication is not just did the 
nutrition,

1795
01:31:30,750 --> 01:31:35,750
obesity community screw up,
but my journalist friends who have been 

1796
01:31:35,821 --> 01:31:39,660
covering this field screwed up that they
got the wrong story.

1797
01:31:39,690 --> 01:31:44,690
They missed the story that I found and 
nobody wants to think like that.

1798
01:31:45,391 --> 01:31:47,070
You don't want to think you're bad at 
what you do.

1799
01:31:47,071 --> 01:31:49,680
Right.
So you know,

1800
01:31:49,681 --> 01:31:52,590
friends or writing articles about me,
you know,

1801
01:31:53,870 --> 01:31:58,870
one woman journalist in Boston or used 
to be a good friend who thought it was 

1802
01:31:58,870 --> 01:32:01,330
one of the five best writers in the 
country,

1803
01:32:01,340 --> 01:32:05,650
science journalists in the country until
I wrote a piece that came to a different

1804
01:32:05,651 --> 01:32:10,300
conclusion than a book she had written 
on obesity and the headline and Newsweek

1805
01:32:10,301 --> 01:32:13,390
was it not the carbs stupid,
you know.

1806
01:32:13,390 --> 01:32:18,390
Um,
the center for science in the public 

1807
01:32:18,390 --> 01:32:19,840
interest did a piece called big fat lies
cover of their newspaper.

1808
01:32:19,841 --> 01:32:23,260
Basically explaining how I had screwed 
up on everything I had screwed up.

1809
01:32:23,261 --> 01:32:26,590
Another journalist who had written a 
book on obesity,

1810
01:32:26,591 --> 01:32:31,330
did a piece for reason magazine about 
all the ways I had screwed up.

1811
01:32:31,331 --> 01:32:36,331
And Luckily I hadn't screwed up in any 
of them so I could get back at them and 

1812
01:32:36,331 --> 01:32:36,331
take them down.

1813
01:32:36,331 --> 01:32:37,810
But when you did get back at them and 
take them down,

1814
01:32:37,811 --> 01:32:39,510
you're talking about a time where,
I mean

1815
01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:41,710
year was this,
this was 2002.

1816
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,530
So you had a blog,
did you have none of that?

1817
01:32:44,590 --> 01:32:49,590
Oh,
well did you publish a center for 

1818
01:32:49,590 --> 01:32:50,620
Science?
And the public interest piece,

1819
01:32:50,621 --> 01:32:55,621
they wouldn't even let me respond.
Reason magazine was interesting.

1820
01:32:56,650 --> 01:32:59,020
I called up the editors and I said,
look,

1821
01:32:59,021 --> 01:33:03,970
this is just complete bullshit and you 
got to let me respond.

1822
01:33:03,971 --> 01:33:04,660
And they said,
okay,

1823
01:33:04,661 --> 01:33:06,700
they didn't care because they put it 
online.

1824
01:33:07,270 --> 01:33:09,550
So with the is going to write for them 
for free,

1825
01:33:09,551 --> 01:33:11,170
let them write for them for free,
you know,

1826
01:33:11,171 --> 01:33:13,490
and the more controversy brings more 
readers.

1827
01:33:13,491 --> 01:33:17,110
So I spent the weekend,
I remember I wrote like a 9,000

1828
01:33:17,111 --> 01:33:20,260
word response and there's still some 
great stuff in there were,

1829
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:23,530
you know,
even the very end of this thing,

1830
01:33:23,531 --> 01:33:25,720
I was pointing out every way this guy 
had screwed up,

1831
01:33:25,721 --> 01:33:30,340
like taken down my article by saying I 
made mistakes when he was the one making

1832
01:33:30,341 --> 01:33:35,140
mistakes in that last line was something
like he had called my editor who had now

1833
01:33:35,141 --> 01:33:40,141
bought this book for a lot of money.
He had called my editor on the gate use 

1834
01:33:40,141 --> 01:33:44,731
the last night.
It's called them Richard Seagull or 

1835
01:33:44,731 --> 01:33:45,400
something.
So the last line of the book wasn't just

1836
01:33:45,500 --> 01:33:48,680
the final word.
My editor's name is not Richard Segal,

1837
01:33:48,681 --> 01:33:50,540
it's John Period,
you know,

1838
01:33:50,650 --> 01:33:55,650
9,000
word takedown and this guy ended up 

1839
01:33:55,650 --> 01:33:57,210
never writing for reason magazine again.
Either graduations.

1840
01:33:57,220 --> 01:33:58,780
Yeah,
he got rid of an asshole.

1841
01:33:58,930 --> 01:33:59,260
So

1842
01:33:59,450 --> 01:34:04,450
analysis,
it's the human ego is shocking and 

1843
01:34:04,450 --> 01:34:07,961
horrifying because that's the only 
reason why someone would look at what 

1844
01:34:07,961 --> 01:34:11,651
you wrote and step back and look at what
they wrote and decide to attack.

1845
01:34:11,930 --> 01:34:13,370
Instead of deciding to go,
wow,

1846
01:34:13,371 --> 01:34:18,200
this guy went deep with this research.
I need to really look at this and I need

1847
01:34:18,201 --> 01:34:23,201
to really find out whether or not I've 
been incorrect and I need to really 

1848
01:34:23,201 --> 01:34:25,280
reevaluate what kind of advice I've been
giving to humans.

1849
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:30,400
Think about the hundreds of thousands or
maybe even millions of people that have 

1850
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:34,061
read articles from these people that 
gave them poor advice and that advice 

1851
01:34:34,580 --> 01:34:37,010
adversely affected their health 
directly.

1852
01:34:37,130 --> 01:34:37,510
Yeah,
yeah,

1853
01:34:37,511 --> 01:34:37,940
yeah,
yeah.

1854
01:34:37,970 --> 01:34:42,970
But again,
which that instead they cover their ass 

1855
01:34:42,970 --> 01:34:44,000
enough program could do that.
They are wave that's remembering,

1856
01:34:44,001 --> 01:34:45,380
you know,
dietary mushrooms.

1857
01:34:45,830 --> 01:34:49,410
We're a member of my brothers is at low 
dose asset thing,

1858
01:34:49,411 --> 01:34:52,040
so it's like I could really transform my
personality.

1859
01:34:52,041 --> 01:34:53,630
I could become a different person.
I.

1860
01:34:54,290 --> 01:34:56,120
Have you tried it before?
No,

1861
01:34:56,150 --> 01:34:58,460
no.
I'm a little that I'll become a.

1862
01:34:58,580 --> 01:35:00,650
I'm going to try now.
That's what's going to happen.

1863
01:35:01,220 --> 01:35:02,270
I have to,
uh,

1864
01:35:02,690 --> 01:35:07,690
let me know after the show.
I have to have to be able to get to 

1865
01:35:07,690 --> 01:35:07,690
burbank.
Burbank on acid.

1866
01:35:07,690 --> 01:35:08,480
Best Way.
Yeah.

1867
01:35:08,481 --> 01:35:09,420
There we go.
Thank you.

1868
01:35:09,820 --> 01:35:11,720
Instinctively know where Jay Leno's 
garage is?

1869
01:35:11,890 --> 01:35:13,070
Yeah.
It'd be like a beacon,

1870
01:35:13,620 --> 01:35:18,620
like seat above.
You know how you have a three d map and 

1871
01:35:18,620 --> 01:35:18,620
it's got that little balloon where your 
relocation.

1872
01:35:18,650 --> 01:35:19,490
Okay.
Were there.

1873
01:35:21,280 --> 01:35:22,520
Hey,
I live in Oakland.

1874
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:25,250
We don't need it.
We don't need help with cyber up.

1875
01:35:25,251 --> 01:35:26,600
There were good.
The,

1876
01:35:26,601 --> 01:35:27,260
um.
Anyway,

1877
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:28,640
so yeah,
it's just,

1878
01:35:28,641 --> 01:35:33,641
it's a natural human tendency.
Wish you wish somebody would say,

1879
01:35:35,630 --> 01:35:37,310
Jesus,
I never thought of this.

1880
01:35:37,490 --> 01:35:39,140
That's all they need to say.
They have to say,

1881
01:35:39,141 --> 01:35:42,710
we never thought of this.
This is an interesting take.

1882
01:35:42,740 --> 01:35:46,520
Clearly the editors at the New York 
Times magazine are really smart.

1883
01:35:46,521 --> 01:35:51,521
People thought this was interesting,
the fact checkers fact check that 

1884
01:35:51,521 --> 01:35:56,171
there's no mistakes.
That's why at least I was safe there 

1885
01:35:56,171 --> 01:35:56,720
because they're really good fact checker
that didn't rely on me.

1886
01:35:57,890 --> 01:35:58,700
Why don't we,

1887
01:36:00,220 --> 01:36:03,220
and it just doesn't happen.
I mean,

1888
01:36:03,221 --> 01:36:08,221
it was funny.
Even afterwards I start doing this book 

1889
01:36:08,221 --> 01:36:12,840
and now I'm going to interview hundreds 
more people and you would expect that a 

1890
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:16,231
lot of the scientists aren't going to 
talk to me because they're going to be 

1891
01:36:16,231 --> 01:36:17,170
so mad at me about this article,
but most of them actually were good.

1892
01:36:17,171 --> 01:36:22,171
There was one scientist I wanted to talk
to specifically because a guy I was 

1893
01:36:22,171 --> 01:36:24,340
talking to said he hated your article.
I thought it was total crap,

1894
01:36:25,300 --> 01:36:27,070
so I sent him an email and I said,
yeah,

1895
01:36:27,130 --> 01:36:30,190
I'd like to interview you.
I'm right here.

1896
01:36:30,191 --> 01:36:32,590
He thought the article was total crap 
and I'd like to know why,

1897
01:36:32,591 --> 01:36:37,591
because if it was,
I want to make sure I don't make those 

1898
01:36:37,591 --> 01:36:37,591
mistakes again.
And he said,

1899
01:36:37,591 --> 01:36:42,031
sure,
as long as you make sure you check all 

1900
01:36:42,031 --> 01:36:42,190
my quotes because I don't trust you to 
get my quotes right,

1901
01:36:42,191 --> 01:36:47,191
because that was another story that was 
going around at the time and two weeks 

1902
01:36:48,511 --> 01:36:50,880
later we get on the phone and he says,
you know,

1903
01:36:50,881 --> 01:36:52,050
I got to apologize

1904
01:36:54,950 --> 01:36:58,760
when I read your article was so pissed 
off by the title,

1905
01:36:58,761 --> 01:37:03,410
what if it's all been a big fat lie and 
your holier than now smarter than we are

1906
01:37:03,411 --> 01:37:08,390
at attitude that I never actually 
thought deeply about what you're saying.

1907
01:37:09,230 --> 01:37:14,230
And I pretty much agree with you now 
that I've read it again in context is 

1908
01:37:14,781 --> 01:37:16,850
everything in these things.
So.

1909
01:37:16,940 --> 01:37:19,250
And I noticed that when I lecture,
so I give a lot of lectures.

1910
01:37:19,251 --> 01:37:21,650
I talked to the grand rounds and medical
schools.

1911
01:37:22,250 --> 01:37:27,250
If somebody introduces me to a room full
of doctors is this is a very well 

1912
01:37:27,250 --> 01:37:29,300
respected journalists.
He's won all these awards,

1913
01:37:29,301 --> 01:37:31,490
including these influential public 
health awards.

1914
01:37:31,790 --> 01:37:36,020
He's written this incredibly thoughtful 
provoking book and we managed to get him

1915
01:37:36,021 --> 01:37:41,000
here to give you the arguments.
The doctors will be completely receptive

1916
01:37:41,001 --> 01:37:44,540
to everything I say.
I've also had people introduce me as,

1917
01:37:44,541 --> 01:37:45,950
yeah,
here's this Guy Taubes.

1918
01:37:45,950 --> 01:37:47,360
He wrote this big book,
he says,

1919
01:37:47,361 --> 01:37:50,270
everything we say is wrong and he's 
going to give a lecture,

1920
01:37:50,750 --> 01:37:53,000
and now it's like they're tuned out from
day one.

1921
01:37:53,030 --> 01:37:58,030
From the moment I opened my mouth,
they're looking for reasons not to 

1922
01:37:58,030 --> 01:37:58,430
believe a word.
I just crossed post sitting.

1923
01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:03,920
Exactly,
and then they're looking at the phones 

1924
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:03,920
five minutes later and checking their 
email.

1925
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:08,330
It sort of.
So context is everything and by making 

1926
01:38:08,731 --> 01:38:13,731
this article as controversial as it 
could with putting actions in the lead 

1927
01:38:13,731 --> 01:38:18,020
and porterhouse steak on the cover and 
what if it's all been a big fat lie and 

1928
01:38:18,020 --> 01:38:20,430
I actually wasn't calling it a lie as a 
lot of mistaken assumptions,

1929
01:38:20,431 --> 01:38:22,980
a lot of bad science,
but nobody lied.

1930
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:24,420
Did you create it,
the title?

1931
01:38:24,510 --> 01:38:25,880
No,
but I didn't.

1932
01:38:25,890 --> 01:38:26,940
That's always what happens,
right?

1933
01:38:26,941 --> 01:38:30,000
I didn't reject it on there so I get 
right title,

1934
01:38:30,150 --> 01:38:30,900
but that's the thing.

1935
01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:35,900
So it got me a big book advance.
It made it exceedingly controversial,

1936
01:38:36,690 --> 01:38:41,690
but it turned a lot of people off 
because they were being accused of 

1937
01:38:41,690 --> 01:38:43,200
things they didn't want to think of 
themselves,

1938
01:38:43,201 --> 01:38:45,510
especially the lie.
Well perhaps the dam,

1939
01:38:45,630 --> 01:38:50,630
but initially,
but over the course of time it's got a 

1940
01:38:50,630 --> 01:38:54,831
lot of support behind it now,
but so many people you've been 

1941
01:38:54,831 --> 01:38:55,710
recommended to me by at least a half a 
dozen people that I deeply respect.

1942
01:38:56,310 --> 01:38:57,270
Well,
this is the thing.

1943
01:38:57,271 --> 01:39:02,271
It's,
it's an extraordinarily powerful 

1944
01:39:02,271 --> 01:39:03,360
intervention.
When you experience and you weren't even

1945
01:39:03,361 --> 01:39:04,650
overweight,
you know,

1946
01:39:04,651 --> 01:39:06,510
this is a good point.
Yeah.

1947
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:11,600
Two things that you know,
when I talked to my colleagues about 

1948
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:15,771
this,
I say it's like you're playing in a 

1949
01:39:15,771 --> 01:39:18,051
poker game with a thousand people in the
establishment and they cheat because 

1950
01:39:18,421 --> 01:39:23,421
they all talk to each other and they 
share cards and they show each other 

1951
01:39:23,421 --> 01:39:23,421
what they get.

1952
01:39:23,421 --> 01:39:24,210
They tell them what they're going to 
bet,

1953
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:29,840
but God keeps stealing you for aces.
You've got the best hand,

1954
01:39:30,990 --> 01:39:35,990
you know,
and the best hand is you shift your 

1955
01:39:35,990 --> 01:39:36,120
diet.
You get rid of the carbs and you replace

1956
01:39:36,121 --> 01:39:39,690
them with fat and it does remarkable 
things to most people.

1957
01:39:39,810 --> 01:39:41,620
Not all.
Okay.

1958
01:39:41,700 --> 01:39:44,340
Because I want to talk to the people 
that it doesn't work on.

1959
01:39:44,550 --> 01:39:49,550
I really do.
I want to know what they're actually 

1960
01:39:49,550 --> 01:39:50,040
doing.
The problem with people when they,

1961
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:51,450
you know,
it,

1962
01:39:51,480 --> 01:39:53,370
it's so,
it's so subjective and it's also,

1963
01:39:53,371 --> 01:39:55,860
you don't exactly know how they're doing
it,

1964
01:39:56,140 --> 01:39:56,590
what,
what,

1965
01:39:56,680 --> 01:40:00,240
what their diet is like in terms of like
how would they cutting out carbs,

1966
01:40:00,241 --> 01:40:01,590
what kind of nutrients are they taking 
in?

1967
01:40:01,591 --> 01:40:03,920
What's or what's the rest like?
I'm sleep.

1968
01:40:03,921 --> 01:40:05,220
Are they getting.
That's the thing.

1969
01:40:05,221 --> 01:40:06,300
I mean,
I have a friend,

1970
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:09,450
a diet book author.

1971
01:40:09,450 --> 01:40:11,610
I think one of the smartest doctors out 
there.

1972
01:40:11,611 --> 01:40:13,020
I'm always,
whatever he says,

1973
01:40:13,021 --> 01:40:16,080
it's always worth listening to.
He believes that when people fail in the

1974
01:40:16,081 --> 01:40:17,520
die,
it doesn't matter what age they are,

1975
01:40:17,521 --> 01:40:22,521
what sex they are,
when the Diet doesn't return them to a 

1976
01:40:22,681 --> 01:40:27,681
relatively healthy weight,
he believes it's because they're not 

1977
01:40:27,681 --> 01:40:30,870
conforming to the um,
I disagree with him actually,

1978
01:40:30,900 --> 01:40:32,050
but again,
he has more.

1979
01:40:32,170 --> 01:40:33,450
Any Diet period.
No,

1980
01:40:33,451 --> 01:40:35,880
the low carb high fat diet,
so you know,

1981
01:40:35,881 --> 01:40:40,881
maybe they're reading too many nuts and 
there's carbs and nuts or maybe they're 

1982
01:40:40,881 --> 01:40:44,211
lying to him about what they're doing or
they're still having the occasional 

1983
01:40:44,211 --> 01:40:47,040
sweet and clearly there are people who 
try to compromise on these diets.

1984
01:40:47,070 --> 01:40:52,070
If I compromise,
I mean you've been hearing so long that 

1985
01:40:52,070 --> 01:40:52,070
fat is bad for you,
so I,

1986
01:40:52,070 --> 01:40:53,740
I'm sure I'm going to restrict,
you know,

1987
01:40:53,741 --> 01:40:57,700
sugar and grain and starches,
but I'm also gonna restrict fat.

1988
01:40:57,700 --> 01:41:02,230
Now you're reading skinless chicken 
breasts with green vegetables and you're

1989
01:41:02,231 --> 01:41:05,680
not even putting butter on it and it 
tastes awful and nobody's going to stick

1990
01:41:05,681 --> 01:41:10,681
to that diet anyway.
And in order to give the skinless 

1991
01:41:10,681 --> 01:41:13,060
chicken breast some flavor,
you got to marinate in some sugar,

1992
01:41:14,230 --> 01:41:15,400
right?
So,

1993
01:41:15,401 --> 01:41:20,401
and the protein and they didn't wanna 
eat a high protein diet because you're 

1994
01:41:20,401 --> 01:41:23,521
going to convert the protein to glucose,
some of those amino acids and that's 

1995
01:41:23,521 --> 01:41:23,920
going to raise blood sugar and that can 
be a problem.

1996
01:41:24,460 --> 01:41:29,460
So maybe they're just doing them wrong,
but there are a lot of hormones that 

1997
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:36,000
influence fat accumulation.
So this is rumors had the Germans and 

1998
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:37,060
Austrians had concluded,
maybe I didn't say this,

1999
01:41:37,061 --> 01:41:39,700
I can't even remember what I.
I've been doing this book tour,

2000
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:43,540
so I got it.
Germans and Austrians Research said,

2001
01:41:43,541 --> 01:41:48,541
look,
this has got to be a hormonal metabolic 

2002
01:41:48,541 --> 01:41:48,541
issue.

2003
01:41:48,541 --> 01:41:48,541
The whole idea that it's just calories 
in,

2004
01:41:48,541 --> 01:41:53,251
calories out is it's an explanation.
It's like somebody gets heavier,

2005
01:41:53,410 --> 01:41:55,210
they take in more calories than they 
expend.

2006
01:41:55,240 --> 01:42:00,000
We know that it's like somebody 
accumulate energy and their fat tissue,

2007
01:42:00,010 --> 01:42:01,780
they were accumulating energy in their 
body,

2008
01:42:01,781 --> 01:42:04,740
which means they're taking in energy 
more than they expected.

2009
01:42:04,750 --> 01:42:06,550
That's just a description of what 
happens.

2010
01:42:06,551 --> 01:42:10,210
It says nothing about why,
you know they're clearly.

2011
01:42:10,211 --> 01:42:13,870
Hormones play a huge role in fat 
accumulation or men and women would look

2012
01:42:13,871 --> 01:42:16,060
identical.
Okay,

2013
01:42:16,061 --> 01:42:20,980
so boys go through puberty,
they lose fat and gain muscle.

2014
01:42:21,340 --> 01:42:25,330
Girls go through puberty,
they gained fat and very specific places

2015
01:42:25,331 --> 01:42:27,100
like not everywhere,
you know,

2016
01:42:27,101 --> 01:42:32,101
place.
It's designed to drive the boys crazy 

2017
01:42:32,101 --> 01:42:33,400
and get some procreation going.
And that's all hormonal.

2018
01:42:33,430 --> 01:42:36,880
It's all estrogen and the girls 
testosterone and the boys,

2019
01:42:36,881 --> 01:42:38,740
you know,
little mix going on.

2020
01:42:39,190 --> 01:42:41,440
It doesn't matter how many calories 
they're consuming,

2021
01:42:42,540 --> 01:42:45,000
so these Germans and Austrians would say
it's,

2022
01:42:45,260 --> 01:42:47,050
you know,
it's clearly a hormonal thing.

2023
01:42:47,250 --> 01:42:52,250
I meant the only way you could explain 
obesity is a hormonal dysregulation,

2024
01:42:52,271 --> 01:42:57,040
and then in the sixties we learned that 
insulin controls fat accumulation,

2025
01:42:57,041 --> 01:43:02,041
dominant hormone,
but these other hormones play a role as 

2026
01:43:02,041 --> 01:43:02,770
well.
So stress hormones play a role,

2027
01:43:02,771 --> 01:43:07,771
and sex hormones play a role,
so estrogen and testosterone both 

2028
01:43:07,771 --> 01:43:12,600
inhibit an enzyme called lipoprotein 
lipase that when it's on your fat cells 

2029
01:43:14,050 --> 01:43:19,050
basically pulls fat out of the 
circulation and into the cell.

2030
01:43:19,330 --> 01:43:24,330
That's a simplistic way to put it.
So when you're pumping out estrogen and 

2031
01:43:24,330 --> 01:43:28,981
testosterone,
you're inhibiting this enzyme which 

2032
01:43:28,981 --> 01:43:29,290
inhibits fat accumulation.
Then you get older,

2033
01:43:29,950 --> 01:43:33,070
you secrete less.
These hormones,

2034
01:43:33,071 --> 01:43:37,000
women go through menopause,
they secrete less estrogen.

2035
01:43:37,001 --> 01:43:41,290
The light bulb protein lipase is 
upregulated on their fat cells,

2036
01:43:41,291 --> 01:43:44,200
so you get more of it,
so it just starts accumulating fat.

2037
01:43:44,230 --> 01:43:46,690
No matter how much the woman wants to 
eat or exercise,

2038
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:49,570
and this is why they put on fat when 
they get older.

2039
01:43:49,570 --> 01:43:52,940
I think women are program to put on fat 
when they're pregnant.

2040
01:43:52,941 --> 01:43:55,340
Men are never really programmed to put 
on fat,

2041
01:43:55,580 --> 01:44:00,580
but women have a fat accumulation 
program when they're pregnant and it 

2042
01:44:00,580 --> 01:44:04,901
sort of kicks in a little bit as they go
through menopause until I think 

2043
01:44:04,901 --> 01:44:06,580
historically when you look at the 
anecdotal evidence,

2044
01:44:06,590 --> 01:44:07,820
uh,
you know,

2045
01:44:07,821 --> 01:44:12,320
older women have a much harder time 
losing excess body fat,

2046
01:44:12,321 --> 01:44:17,321
even on very calorie carbohydrate 
restricted ketogenetic diets and it 

2047
01:44:17,321 --> 01:44:22,220
would be completely understandable.
And the argument I make is that the,

2048
01:44:22,221 --> 01:44:24,830
um,
it would still be the best diet,

2049
01:44:25,010 --> 01:44:27,350
still be the leanest.
They could be,

2050
01:44:28,790 --> 01:44:33,790
you know,
for all intents and purposes by getting 

2051
01:44:33,790 --> 01:44:36,761
rid of carbs,
but it does not mean that it's gonna 

2052
01:44:36,761 --> 01:44:38,920
work or it's going to work as much as 
they wanted to because of these other 

2053
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:41,510
sex hormones and the influence on body 
fat as well.

2054
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:45,080
And perhaps the only way to adjust that 
would be extreme exercise,

2055
01:44:45,081 --> 01:44:50,081
right?
Like then don't have to go crazy 

2056
01:44:50,081 --> 01:44:50,081
crossfit or start running up hills with 
weights on them.

2057
01:44:50,081 --> 01:44:50,180
Something,
you know.

2058
01:44:51,730 --> 01:44:54,320
And that's a question I don't know,
and that wouldn't address it.

2059
01:44:54,321 --> 01:44:58,040
That would be sort of a temporary fix,
you know?

2060
01:44:58,041 --> 01:45:01,700
So you might be able to stimulate some 
more,

2061
01:45:01,701 --> 01:45:03,590
even testosterone production,
I mean,

2062
01:45:04,100 --> 01:45:07,080
uh,
but temporary fix,

2063
01:45:07,081 --> 01:45:09,340
unless you continue that activity.
Yeah.

2064
01:45:09,341 --> 01:45:10,130
And,
but the problem is,

2065
01:45:10,131 --> 01:45:12,530
if it may be virtually,
you know,

2066
01:45:12,531 --> 01:45:13,160
again,
I,

2067
01:45:13,740 --> 01:45:16,670
here's my issue with Cri.
I,

2068
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:22,520
I don't know,
there was a harvard psychologist in the 

2069
01:45:23,030 --> 01:45:27,140
50 forties and fifties named William 
Sheldon who came up with this idea.

2070
01:45:27,141 --> 01:45:28,640
I'm gonna.
Need some googling here,

2071
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:33,760
by the way,
I have three different fundamental body 

2072
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:37,631
types.
So there's an echo more Sunday mezzo 

2073
01:45:37,631 --> 01:45:37,631
morph.
And uh,

2074
01:45:37,631 --> 01:45:39,500
what was the endomorph which is the 
obese one,

2075
01:45:39,590 --> 01:45:40,730
endomorph endomorph.

2076
01:45:40,730 --> 01:45:42,870
And he said,
and which the thin what act?

2077
01:45:43,620 --> 01:45:45,080
So he said,
you can no more,

2078
01:45:45,410 --> 01:45:49,180
you could starve an ectomorph and you 
don't turn them into an,

2079
01:45:49,910 --> 01:45:52,680
you can starve an endo more if you don't
turn them into an Ectomorph,

2080
01:45:52,700 --> 01:45:55,070
you turn them into an a macerated 
endomorph.

2081
01:45:55,940 --> 01:45:57,530
Okay.
It's like you cannot.

2082
01:45:57,610 --> 01:46:00,130
And I don't know if it was his metaphor.
Mine,

2083
01:46:00,140 --> 01:46:02,840
I forget now you,
you can't starve a basset hound and turn

2084
01:46:02,841 --> 01:46:06,140
it into a greyhound and you just end up 
with a basset hound.

2085
01:46:06,170 --> 01:46:11,170
Genetic factors determined by the 
environment with our ancestors 

2086
01:46:11,170 --> 01:46:11,170
developed,
uh,

2087
01:46:11,170 --> 01:46:13,250
and the environment in the mother's womb
and the,

2088
01:46:13,251 --> 01:46:15,440
and the,
you know,

2089
01:46:15,441 --> 01:46:17,090
uh,
and it's not necessarily,

2090
01:46:17,091 --> 01:46:22,091
like I said,
genetic and it certainly biological 

2091
01:46:22,091 --> 01:46:22,091
factors.
Who knows,

2092
01:46:22,091 --> 01:46:22,091
maybe that gut biome is involved.
I doubt it.

2093
01:46:22,091 --> 01:46:24,380
But there's also the shapes of the 
bodies are radically different.

2094
01:46:24,380 --> 01:46:27,020
That's the thing with the shoulders and 
morphs.

2095
01:46:27,140 --> 01:46:27,770
Yeah,
yeah,

2096
01:46:27,771 --> 01:46:29,070
yeah.
My brother was an actor.

2097
01:46:29,071 --> 01:46:34,071
I mean he was,
he was always tall and thin and he got 

2098
01:46:34,071 --> 01:46:35,540
one 95.
He was buff,

2099
01:46:35,541 --> 01:46:40,541
but he wasn't.
I could put on muscle much easier than 

2100
01:46:40,541 --> 01:46:40,541
him.
I could put on fat.

2101
01:46:40,541 --> 01:46:44,950
I had a friend who was a taekwondo 
champion in the eighties and he was six 

2102
01:46:44,950 --> 01:46:46,580
foot two,
six foot maybe three.

2103
01:46:46,850 --> 01:46:49,190
And he fought at 147 pounds.
Yeah.

2104
01:46:49,470 --> 01:46:51,970
And you wouldn't get anywhere from six 
to.

2105
01:46:52,010 --> 01:46:53,430
When I start,
I'll start with,

2106
01:46:53,431 --> 01:46:56,670
I'll starve to death at one 75.
But it was in his hands.

2107
01:46:56,671 --> 01:47:00,070
It was in the shape of his face.
He was very narrow feet everything.

2108
01:47:00,071 --> 01:47:01,590
It's just.
And that's how his body.

2109
01:47:01,591 --> 01:47:05,670
So part of this alternative hypothesis,
which I find so you know,

2110
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:07,320
we believe today is,
you know,

2111
01:47:07,321 --> 01:47:12,321
the conventional thinking is how much 
are we next besides drives,

2112
01:47:12,811 --> 01:47:14,190
how much fat do you accumulate?

2113
01:47:14,820 --> 01:47:18,840
And the alternative hypothesis is that 
how much fat you accumulate is very well

2114
01:47:18,841 --> 01:47:23,841
regulated by the human body.
Other you could change that regulation 

2115
01:47:23,841 --> 01:47:27,291
by changing the macronutrients.
So people who fat tissue doesn't want to

2116
01:47:27,631 --> 01:47:30,210
accumulate fat,
who are constitutionally lean.

2117
01:47:30,400 --> 01:47:34,890
Your body when they eat a meal,
they can't store it as fat temporarily.

2118
01:47:34,891 --> 01:47:39,891
They get a burn all those calories.
So the way they'd burn it in prior to 

2119
01:47:39,891 --> 01:47:40,950
the 19 fifties,
a clinician studying obese,

2120
01:47:40,951 --> 01:47:43,260
you talked about the impulse to physical
activity.

2121
01:47:44,010 --> 01:47:47,820
So you eat,
you know Lance Armstrong eats a thousand

2122
01:47:47,821 --> 01:47:52,050
calories of pasta and his body doesn't 
want to store it as fat.

2123
01:47:52,051 --> 01:47:57,051
It wants to burn it.
So he goes for three hour bike ride 

2124
01:47:57,051 --> 01:47:59,871
after lunch because his body's trying 
desperately to get rid of those calories

2125
01:48:00,361 --> 01:48:04,110
and it doesn't want a storm is fat.
I have the thousand calories a pasta,

2126
01:48:04,111 --> 01:48:07,560
my body's happy storing fat and I'm 
asleep an hour later.

2127
01:48:08,340 --> 01:48:12,870
But I'm not thicker and fatter than 
Armstrong because I'm asleep.

2128
01:48:13,110 --> 01:48:16,890
I'm asleep because that's the way my 
body processed carbs.

2129
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:22,520
But is that a case of nature or nurture?
That's nature.

2130
01:48:23,090 --> 01:48:24,330
Hundred percent.
But it's.

2131
01:48:24,331 --> 01:48:29,331
No,
it's not because the nurture part is 

2132
01:48:29,331 --> 01:48:31,401
healthy diet influences.
So if I have exclusively fat and 

2133
01:48:31,401 --> 01:48:35,601
protein,
if I'm eating a key to genic diet that 

2134
01:48:35,601 --> 01:48:38,100
I'm minimizing fat accumulation of my 
body wants to burn more calories.

2135
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:43,280
So I am closer to being a lance.
So Lance Armstrong can be lean on his 

2136
01:48:44,730 --> 01:48:49,380
high carb diet.
I am closer to being Lance Armstrong,

2137
01:48:49,420 --> 01:48:53,250
like closest on a diet to absent doll 
carbohydrates.

2138
01:48:53,850 --> 01:48:55,650
But I'm still,
you know,

2139
01:48:55,651 --> 01:48:57,600
now I'm just a bigger individual.
I mean,

2140
01:48:57,601 --> 01:48:59,280
it's interesting.
We were talking about,

2141
01:48:59,340 --> 01:49:01,650
uh,
uh,

2142
01:49:02,070 --> 01:49:07,070
you know,
I was talking to a friend of mine who 

2143
01:49:07,070 --> 01:49:07,650
was a freshman manager of my college 
football team.

2144
01:49:07,651 --> 01:49:08,670
So this was harvard.

2145
01:49:08,670 --> 01:49:10,620
Okay.
It was division two football.

2146
01:49:10,621 --> 01:49:12,880
It was a lot of smart,
you know,

2147
01:49:13,530 --> 01:49:15,800
guys who couldn't make it in division 
one.

2148
01:49:15,810 --> 01:49:20,810
We had kids who went to Harvard because 
they didn't get scholarships at Holy 

2149
01:49:20,810 --> 01:49:20,810
Cross.
So they went,

2150
01:49:20,810 --> 01:49:21,270
okay,
I'll play football for Harvard.

2151
01:49:21,271 --> 01:49:24,870
They were local 19,
76.

2152
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:27,510
My senior year,
the biggest kid on our team,

2153
01:49:27,990 --> 01:49:32,990
Danny tickets weighed 265 pounds,
six foot five from our standards.

2154
01:49:33,781 --> 01:49:38,781
Who was enormous.
He went off to play for the Chicago 

2155
01:49:38,781 --> 01:49:41,211
bears for five or six years.
I think we had one other offensive 

2156
01:49:41,211 --> 01:49:44,700
lineman who was to 65 also six,
four,

2157
01:49:44,701 --> 01:49:45,570
six,
five,

2158
01:49:47,650 --> 01:49:51,280
maybe two this year.
Harvard football team,

2159
01:49:51,281 --> 01:49:54,190
a smart kid,
same socioeconomic status.

2160
01:49:54,460 --> 01:49:58,150
The entire offense have they got I think
12 players over 300 pounds.

2161
01:49:58,970 --> 01:50:01,810
His cronies guys were enormous.
I mean there are six slash seven,

2162
01:50:01,900 --> 01:50:06,900
300 pounds.
They didn't grow people that big when I 

2163
01:50:06,900 --> 01:50:07,030
was growing up.

2164
01:50:07,480 --> 01:50:09,940
I mean I could say maybe I didn't see 
him.

2165
01:50:10,630 --> 01:50:12,700
Maybe they weren't around.
Maybe they were six,

2166
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:15,730
seven and they only weighed 2:30
because they weren't being bulked up.

2167
01:50:15,731 --> 01:50:18,250
So they were playing basketball instead 
of football.

2168
01:50:18,600 --> 01:50:23,600
I mean,
I could imagine ways that that 

2169
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:23,600
confusing,
but from our perception,

2170
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:28,231
if you look just what happened when I 
was a kid in early 19 sixties there,

2171
01:50:29,460 --> 01:50:31,090
as far as I know,
there was one,

2172
01:50:31,390 --> 01:50:36,390
300 pounder in the NFL and the AFL,
two different leads back then.

2173
01:50:37,121 --> 01:50:42,121
Bob De remember his name,
he played for the Boston Patriots and 

2174
01:50:42,121 --> 01:50:44,870
his head was like small compared to his 
body and he was a big fat guy.

2175
01:50:45,860 --> 01:50:48,040
You know what is there now?
Twenty,

2176
01:50:48,041 --> 01:50:49,630
30 per team.

2177
01:50:50,200 --> 01:50:51,500
Well,
here's a good example,

2178
01:50:51,530 --> 01:50:56,530
big George Foreman from 1970,
whatever it was when he fought Joe 

2179
01:50:56,960 --> 01:50:58,550
Frazier,
he only 217 pounds.

2180
01:50:59,380 --> 01:51:01,030
Is that George?
Only way?

2181
01:51:01,490 --> 01:51:02,550
Yeah,
I mean when he came back,

2182
01:51:04,310 --> 01:51:06,110
when he came back,
when he took a long time off,

2183
01:51:06,320 --> 01:51:08,500
he ate himself to be well over 300

2184
01:51:10,210 --> 01:51:15,210
training.
All the fat from the George Foreman 

2185
01:51:15,210 --> 01:51:15,210
Grill

2186
01:51:15,210 --> 01:51:19,510
making low fat grows even after that,
but back in those days when he was a 

2187
01:51:19,541 --> 01:51:22,570
terror before he fought Muhammad Ali,
who's relatively small.

2188
01:51:22,571 --> 01:51:27,571
By today's standards,
I mean if you look at a UFC heavyweight 

2189
01:51:27,571 --> 01:51:27,571
champions,
steep emile chick,

2190
01:51:27,571 --> 01:51:32,360
I believe Steve a walks around about 240
pounds and he's small compared to Brock 

2191
01:51:32,560 --> 01:51:37,560
Lesnar who's 285 pounds.
Like here's a good example that Jamie 

2192
01:51:37,560 --> 01:51:41,260
just pulled up from 1927 guy blow your 
nose man.

2193
01:51:41,261 --> 01:51:43,650
You figured me out the other one.
Okay,

2194
01:51:43,660 --> 01:51:45,640
here everybody could hear it.
Trust me,

2195
01:51:45,910 --> 01:51:50,910
they can hear it.
I'm 190 pounds Morris read but bad drew 

2196
01:51:52,661 --> 01:51:53,980
grow.
How do you say that name B,

2197
01:51:53,981 --> 01:51:55,360
a d,
g,

2198
01:51:55,420 --> 01:51:57,550
r o bad bro.
That grow.

2199
01:51:57,640 --> 01:51:59,700
He's growing bad.
That's why he's only one 90.

2200
01:52:00,300 --> 01:52:03,130
He's six foot tall.
100 90 and this is 19,

2201
01:52:03,150 --> 01:52:08,150
27.
He played offense and defense for the 

2202
01:52:08,150 --> 01:52:09,850
New York giants.
So that guy is 10 pounds lighter than me

2203
01:52:10,210 --> 01:52:11,440
and I'm five.
Eight.

2204
01:52:12,010 --> 01:52:17,010
Yeah,
he's six foot tall and he's a pro 

2205
01:52:17,010 --> 01:52:17,010
football player,
which is fucking terrifying to me.

2206
01:52:17,010 --> 01:52:20,320
And then you go to 1967 and you've got 
Alan page.

2207
01:52:20,321 --> 01:52:23,440
He's six foot four,
245 pounds.

2208
01:52:23,470 --> 01:52:28,470
A relative giant in comparison.
Then you go to 2006 and you have boy,

2209
01:52:29,530 --> 01:52:31,740
say that name.
How long have you got?

2210
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:32,590
A lot.
Nada,

2211
01:52:32,770 --> 01:52:33,790
Nada,
Nada,

2212
01:52:34,120 --> 01:52:39,120
Nada.
I think you don't pronounce the 

2213
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:39,120
Gentleman Pranab.
She is.

2214
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:39,360
Hello?
Nada.

2215
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:41,470
Okay.
And he is six foot four.

2216
01:52:41,471 --> 01:52:45,070
Three hundred 35 pounds.
He's got a big old gut.

2217
01:52:45,200 --> 01:52:46,100
Him could lose some weight.

2218
01:52:47,010 --> 01:52:49,370
It's 45 seconds.
Wow,

2219
01:52:49,580 --> 01:52:51,170
that's insane.
So He's a giant.

2220
01:52:51,440 --> 01:52:56,300
I mean people are just starting left 
tackle for the Dallas cowboys right now.

2221
01:52:56,301 --> 01:52:59,540
I forget his name.
Just Google left tackle.

2222
01:52:59,541 --> 01:53:03,680
Dallas cowboys or even a heavyweight 
boxers today.

2223
01:53:03,710 --> 01:53:08,710
Tyrone Smith.
That's good to get a picture of it as a 

2224
01:53:10,311 --> 01:53:11,630
big fella.
Okay.

2225
01:53:12,410 --> 01:53:14,780
Shirt off without the shirt off.
Let's go.

2226
01:53:14,781 --> 01:53:15,530
Pornographic.
Okay.

2227
01:53:15,531 --> 01:53:16,520
So they're not.
I mean,

2228
01:53:16,790 --> 01:53:18,690
people didn't exist like that when I was
growing.

2229
01:53:19,050 --> 01:53:24,050
Yeah.
There's this new heavyweight that's 

2230
01:53:24,050 --> 01:53:26,910
fighting for the UFC.
His name is Francis in Ghana and he's 

2231
01:53:26,910 --> 01:53:28,750
one of the most exciting prospects in 
the UFC right now.

2232
01:53:28,751 --> 01:53:33,751
He's a heavyweight.
He's undefeated and he is fucking 

2233
01:53:33,751 --> 01:53:33,751
enormous.
And uh,

2234
01:53:33,820 --> 01:53:35,740
he is probably.
Yeah,

2235
01:53:35,741 --> 01:53:37,960
go to that picture right there.
That far left far left.

2236
01:53:37,961 --> 01:53:38,980
Jamie upper left.
Yeah,

2237
01:53:39,250 --> 01:53:43,180
he's,
I mean that is a giant man.

2238
01:53:43,480 --> 01:53:45,820
Ridiculous,
brutal knockout artists too.

2239
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:51,240
And um,
let me go to go see if there's a 

2240
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:54,331
wikipedia on his size,
but I'm pretty sure he's super lean 

2241
01:53:54,331 --> 01:53:56,110
around 2:45,
something like that.

2242
01:53:56,680 --> 01:53:58,480
What does it say?
They're six foot four.

2243
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:02,440
It doesn't say his weight right there.
It says waiting anywhere there.

2244
01:54:03,100 --> 01:54:04,930
Two 50.
Seven to 57.

2245
01:54:06,050 --> 01:54:07,600
Okay.
So he's 40.

2246
01:54:07,601 --> 01:54:12,390
He's 40 pounds heavier.
That may or may not be correct as far as

2247
01:54:12,500 --> 01:54:13,840
wait,
but close in.

2248
01:54:13,850 --> 01:54:18,850
I wouldn't be shocked.
He's one of those guys where he walks 

2249
01:54:18,850 --> 01:54:19,790
into the octagon and you know,
when I do commentary,

2250
01:54:19,791 --> 01:54:22,220
I sit at a desk that's touching the 
octagon.

2251
01:54:22,221 --> 01:54:23,930
So I'm sitting here,
there's a desk,

2252
01:54:23,931 --> 01:54:25,310
my notes are on it.
He's in front of me.

2253
01:54:25,460 --> 01:54:30,170
When he walks into the octagon,
I can feel his footsteps on my hands.

2254
01:54:30,590 --> 01:54:32,450
He's like,
he's made out of stone.

2255
01:54:32,990 --> 01:54:35,150
And then when he hits people,
just Jesus Christ,

2256
01:54:35,151 --> 01:54:37,400
you see the look on their face when he 
hits him,

2257
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:39,330
see if he can find like a,
like

2258
01:54:39,700 --> 01:54:43,510
quick highlight reel of this guy.
That was interesting.

2259
01:54:43,511 --> 01:54:44,170
Some of that,
I mean,

2260
01:54:44,171 --> 01:54:46,990
training has changed dramatically.
Like even for sure George,

2261
01:54:46,991 --> 01:54:48,170
I mean,
you know,

2262
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:51,250
boxers didn't lift,
they didn't do resistance training,

2263
01:54:51,251 --> 01:54:56,251
didn't do any of the bags back thing 
because he didn't want to slow them 

2264
01:54:56,251 --> 01:54:58,630
down.
That's what they led this boom.

2265
01:54:59,320 --> 01:55:01,780
He's a giant dude French too.

2266
01:55:01,830 --> 01:55:02,730
Yes,
French.

2267
01:55:02,731 --> 01:55:06,420
But I believe originally from Nigeria I 
believe.

2268
01:55:06,870 --> 01:55:09,840
And really look at that.
Boom,

2269
01:55:09,870 --> 01:55:11,820
big powerful guy.
Terrifying guy.

2270
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:14,270
So here's the thing,
one of my pet theories,

2271
01:55:14,290 --> 01:55:17,430
I don't talk about this,
why I let my kids have sugar by the way.

2272
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:20,880
Ouch.
The uh,

2273
01:55:22,310 --> 01:55:27,310
okay.
So one of the things that happens when 

2274
01:55:27,310 --> 01:55:27,310
you increase insulin,
so the sugar,

2275
01:55:27,310 --> 01:55:30,831
the sugar,
because on some resistant that results 

2276
01:55:30,831 --> 01:55:32,100
in chronic increases and insulin levels.
So insulin stimulates fat accumulation,

2277
01:55:32,101 --> 01:55:35,940
but it also stimulates the secretion of 
insulin,

2278
01:55:35,941 --> 01:55:38,610
like growth hormone,
which is similar to growth hormone.

2279
01:55:38,611 --> 01:55:43,611
So the reason we grow is not because 
growth hormone drives tissues and 

2280
01:55:43,611 --> 01:55:44,070
skeletal muscle grow,
but it drives

2281
01:55:44,070 --> 01:55:46,890
into like growth factor,
which then works on a local level.

2282
01:55:48,630 --> 01:55:50,450
So if you have more insulin in your 
system,

2283
01:55:50,451 --> 01:55:55,451
you can have more insulin like growth 
factor and it's going to be more 

2284
01:55:55,451 --> 01:55:55,451
bioavailable.
Um,

2285
01:55:55,451 --> 01:55:59,600
there's these proteins binding proteins 
that float around the bloodstream and 

2286
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:03,621
they'll bind to igf growth factor and 
make it so can't get into cells or can't

2287
01:56:04,320 --> 01:56:09,320
bind to the receptors.
So you would expect as populations,

2288
01:56:10,711 --> 01:56:13,590
as populations have become more intense 
in some resistance,

2289
01:56:13,591 --> 01:56:18,090
you would expect them to grow to be 
taller as well as thicker and fatter and

2290
01:56:18,091 --> 01:56:23,091
more diabetic.
And one of the classic observations as 

2291
01:56:23,091 --> 01:56:24,750
populations become Westernized,
they get taller and this,

2292
01:56:24,780 --> 01:56:29,780
you know,
you look at medical records or army 

2293
01:56:29,780 --> 01:56:29,780
records from,
you know,

2294
01:56:29,780 --> 01:56:33,080
the civil war and everybody weld them 
and we're like five foot six and um,

2295
01:56:33,540 --> 01:56:38,540
you know,
now clearly the average height has gone 

2296
01:56:38,540 --> 01:56:38,730
up and it's kind of leveled off a bit in
the United States.

2297
01:56:38,730 --> 01:56:41,160
But there's still countries in Europe or
it's gotten higher.

2298
01:56:41,161 --> 01:56:46,161
And one of the things that freaks me out
is when they go to Europe nowadays and 

2299
01:56:46,161 --> 01:56:49,160
you're walking around a lot of 
scandinavians and I feel petite Holland.

2300
01:56:49,380 --> 01:56:54,380
Yeah.
Rich Man in Holland is over six foot 

2301
01:56:54,380 --> 01:56:54,380
tall.
When I was growing up I was definitively

2302
01:56:54,380 --> 01:56:59,331
tall and now I haven't shrunk.
I don't think it might be getting there 

2303
01:56:59,331 --> 01:57:00,510
and now it's just like everyone seemed 
six,

2304
01:57:00,511 --> 01:57:00,990
four,
six,

2305
01:57:00,991 --> 01:57:04,500
five.
So the conventional thinking is they get

2306
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:09,680
more calories,
I get more protein that you need the 

2307
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:12,510
protein for the growth and the calories 
and that's kind of the explanation,

2308
01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:17,960
but it could be that they get more sugar
and that drives vertical growth as well 

2309
01:57:18,091 --> 01:57:20,340
as horizontal growth.
And will that make sense?

2310
01:57:20,341 --> 01:57:23,490
Because don't bodybuilders like under 
extreme situations,

2311
01:57:23,491 --> 01:57:25,040
don't they take insulin in order to.

2312
01:57:25,500 --> 01:57:26,280
Yeah.
Yeah,

2313
01:57:26,330 --> 01:57:29,100
because it'll,
it'll drive muscle development as well.

2314
01:57:29,101 --> 01:57:29,460
I mean,
again,

2315
01:57:29,461 --> 01:57:33,180
it works as a growth hormone and igf is 
a growth hormone.

2316
01:57:33,181 --> 01:57:38,181
So could there be an argument for 
bodybuilders to consume a diet that's 

2317
01:57:38,181 --> 01:57:41,500
high in sugar in order to,
to spike up that insulin to,

2318
01:57:41,620 --> 01:57:46,620
you know,
now you're getting out of my area of 

2319
01:57:46,620 --> 01:57:46,620
expertise again.
But it's funny,

2320
01:57:46,620 --> 01:57:48,270
when Arnold came over in the sixties,
the,

2321
01:57:48,300 --> 01:57:50,580
one of the advantages he had,
other than,

2322
01:57:50,610 --> 01:57:55,610
you know,
massive amounts of steroid consumption 

2323
01:57:55,610 --> 01:57:55,610
was that he,
this,

2324
01:57:55,680 --> 01:58:00,680
I forget who his mentor was back then,
but they put them on a very low carb 

2325
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:01,500
diet because that definitely cuts the 
fat.

2326
01:58:01,501 --> 01:58:04,090
So again,
this is far out of my area of expertise,

2327
01:58:04,140 --> 01:58:06,210
but you get a bodybuilder and they'll 
tell you how they,

2328
01:58:06,480 --> 01:58:07,070
you know,
um,

2329
01:58:07,860 --> 01:58:09,110
uh,
you know,

2330
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:13,710
oscillate between the high carbs for 
development,

2331
01:58:13,711 --> 01:58:17,760
high fat to cut the fat and get down to.
I had this debate.

2332
01:58:17,790 --> 01:58:19,470
Do you know Alan Aragon?
No,

2333
01:58:19,560 --> 01:58:20,130
no.
Yeah,

2334
01:58:20,131 --> 01:58:21,050
yeah.
I know who that guy is.

2335
01:58:21,060 --> 01:58:22,980
So Allen,
we had a debate.

2336
01:58:23,010 --> 01:58:24,060
Yeah.
He's like,

2337
01:58:24,061 --> 01:58:25,470
he's very skeptical.
Oh,

2338
01:58:25,690 --> 01:58:28,800
it's a kind way to put it.
And I think it's a bit of A.

2339
01:58:28,830 --> 01:58:30,660
I don't get it.
I always wanted to ask him like,

2340
01:58:30,661 --> 01:58:31,520
Alan,
what you know,

2341
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:33,660
you know,
that this isn't.

2342
01:58:34,100 --> 01:58:39,100
I'm arguing that that defined his 
position because he has no calories.

2343
01:58:40,110 --> 01:58:42,160
It's just all about.
And you get people

2344
01:58:42,160 --> 01:58:44,920
to exercise and off field turn an obese 
person lean.

2345
01:58:44,921 --> 01:58:45,760
And you know,
if that,

2346
01:58:45,970 --> 01:58:48,220
I mean,
the implication that it can happen,

2347
01:58:48,250 --> 01:58:53,250
but you know,
who the fuck is going to do it the way 

2348
01:58:53,250 --> 01:58:55,711
you would have to do it,
you would essentially have to starve 

2349
01:58:55,711 --> 01:58:55,711
your body.
Well,

2350
01:58:55,711 --> 01:58:57,610
but this is the point.
It's like I could get it done that way.

2351
01:58:57,640 --> 01:58:59,380
I know,
but it doesn't say any reason.

2352
01:58:59,381 --> 01:59:01,480
It doesn't say anything about why they 
got fat to begin with.

2353
01:59:01,510 --> 01:59:06,510
I didn't say anything about the damaging
effects of sugar and I could inhibit 

2354
01:59:06,510 --> 01:59:09,480
your kid's growth by starving them.
Right.

2355
01:59:09,640 --> 01:59:11,170
You know,
when they're going to be stunted.

2356
01:59:11,200 --> 01:59:16,200
But that doesn't mean they're growing 
because they get to eat as much as they 

2357
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:16,200
want.
They're growing because their brains are

2358
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:18,700
secreting growth hormone,
stimulate igf.

2359
01:59:18,701 --> 01:59:22,000
And that makes them hungry.
So what is he denying about?

2360
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:23,250
I Dunno,
we rented

2361
01:59:23,430 --> 01:59:26,310
Bait in England that,
uh,

2362
01:59:27,240 --> 01:59:32,240
it was about a.
I don't quite understand what he was 

2363
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:32,240
denying.
That was the interesting thing.

2364
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:36,981
He basically was denying that it was 
about that obesity was a hormonal 

2365
01:59:37,291 --> 01:59:42,291
metabolic disorder.
He had a denied that a journalist knows 

2366
01:59:42,291 --> 01:59:45,441
something that he doesn't and that the 
advice he's been giving and that what 

2367
01:59:45,841 --> 01:59:49,010
he's been voicing over the years is 
right and what is,

2368
01:59:49,011 --> 01:59:51,060
does a medical background.
Uh,

2369
01:59:51,070 --> 01:59:53,360
he's got no medical background.
He's a physical trainer.

2370
01:59:53,370 --> 01:59:57,270
Maybe it's an exercise physiologist,
he's no more doctor and nutritionist and

2371
01:59:57,271 --> 01:59:59,070
I am the,
um,

2372
02:00:00,450 --> 02:00:04,080
the point since I was looking for ways 
to debate him.

2373
02:00:04,081 --> 02:00:07,950
So I found a clip,
a need internet,

2374
02:00:07,951 --> 02:00:12,951
one of his lectures where he was talking
about how there was one particular 

2375
02:00:12,951 --> 02:00:13,210
athlete,
he was training a bodybuilder.

2376
02:00:13,230 --> 02:00:16,650
He had to get maximum caught for the 
competition.

2377
02:00:16,651 --> 02:00:21,651
So he cut his carbs down and if he cut 
the carbs preferentially you do that 

2378
02:00:23,371 --> 02:00:28,371
because you're going to reduce insulin 
and you're going to mobilize maximum 

2379
02:00:28,371 --> 02:00:31,011
amount of fan.
You're going to get the most possible 

2380
02:00:31,011 --> 02:00:33,231
fat out of the fat tissue by doing it.
And it clearly meant he believes what I 

2381
02:00:33,231 --> 02:00:34,200
believe,
but some people just,

2382
02:00:34,380 --> 02:00:35,980
you know,
you got to establish what,

2383
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:38,280
how did he respond to that?
He laughed.

2384
02:00:38,281 --> 02:00:40,140
Everybody laughed.
He got kind of embarrassed,

2385
02:00:40,141 --> 02:00:41,130
but it was a,
you know,

2386
02:00:41,370 --> 02:00:46,260
it was an interesting debate.
It was a fitness expo in,

2387
02:00:46,770 --> 02:00:48,020
I forget what,
you know,

2388
02:00:48,030 --> 02:00:50,940
red brick town in England,
you know,

2389
02:00:50,941 --> 02:00:51,770
one of these.

2390
02:00:52,100 --> 02:00:54,500
The reason why I keep bringing him up is
because I've been.

2391
02:00:55,340 --> 02:01:00,340
I've been contacted by fans of his have 
been in communication with him at one 

2392
02:01:01,101 --> 02:01:06,101
point in time and I didn't realize how 
strongly against this proposition he is 

2393
02:01:06,321 --> 02:01:06,890
or this.
Yeah,

2394
02:01:06,920 --> 02:01:10,430
well you should.
You should get him to do the show.

2395
02:01:10,431 --> 02:01:11,870
I mean,
he's very chatty,

2396
02:01:11,871 --> 02:01:16,871
talkative guy and he'll explain it to 
you and then you could argue and we 

2397
02:01:16,871 --> 02:01:16,871
could argue,
but what it does,

2398
02:01:16,871 --> 02:01:18,950
what does he say about the impact of 
sugar?

2399
02:01:19,190 --> 02:01:24,190
Like does he deny all these things that 
you're talking to them about bds and we 

2400
02:01:24,190 --> 02:01:25,870
did not say this debate.

2401
02:01:26,410 --> 02:01:30,460
I would hate to get Allan's position 
wrong,

2402
02:01:30,461 --> 02:01:34,930
but if he's implying that obesity is an 
energy balance problem,

2403
02:01:34,931 --> 02:01:36,560
it's calories in,
calories out.

2404
02:01:36,561 --> 02:01:38,140
I.
That seemed to be the argument.

2405
02:01:38,141 --> 02:01:40,580
He was defending vociferously when we 
debated.

2406
02:01:41,090 --> 02:01:46,090
That in turn means that the only way 
that foods can influence your body 

2407
02:01:46,090 --> 02:01:48,650
weight is through their,
a caloric content,

2408
02:01:49,130 --> 02:01:52,970
and that means sugar is,
you know,

2409
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:55,130
an empty calorie than where she could 
say about it.

2410
02:01:55,450 --> 02:02:00,450
Clearly not true.
If sugar actually does affect your 

2411
02:02:00,450 --> 02:02:02,470
hormonal state and that affects the way 
your body processes

2412
02:02:02,550 --> 02:02:03,240
fat.
I was so,

2413
02:02:03,241 --> 02:02:06,570
he went on insulin.
If he were to believe that,

2414
02:02:06,571 --> 02:02:09,020
then he would have been conceding that I
won the debates,

2415
02:02:09,070 --> 02:02:13,050
I'm going to say,
which he clearly doesn't think I did.

2416
02:02:13,051 --> 02:02:13,940
And um,
you know,

2417
02:02:13,950 --> 02:02:18,950
frankly I didn't because the crowd was 
100 percent with him when we started and

2418
02:02:19,081 --> 02:02:21,390
it was like 95 percent with them when we
left.

2419
02:02:22,230 --> 02:02:25,080
But that's still pretty good.
That's what I would argue.

2420
02:02:25,081 --> 02:02:30,081
But uh,
and I learned my lesson that you can't 

2421
02:02:30,081 --> 02:02:33,921
win a debate when you're going in and 
everyone sides with your now why did 

2422
02:02:33,921 --> 02:02:36,400
they all signed with him as they love 
sugar now?

2423
02:02:36,450 --> 02:02:38,170
What was under,
it wasn't about sugars,

2424
02:02:38,180 --> 02:02:43,180
but the cause of obesity.
We were actually debating different 

2425
02:02:43,180 --> 02:02:43,180
things.
Was kind of,

2426
02:02:43,180 --> 02:02:47,660
it was a weird situation.
I think I may have blocked it out of my 

2427
02:02:47,660 --> 02:02:47,660
head,
but we were debating,

2428
02:02:47,660 --> 02:02:48,150
you know,
again,

2429
02:02:48,151 --> 02:02:49,620
my argument,
obesity,

2430
02:02:49,710 --> 02:02:54,710
I'm what I thought we were supposed to 
be debating was whether or not obesity 

2431
02:02:56,731 --> 02:03:01,731
is caused by consuming too many calories
or the macronutrient contents 

2432
02:03:01,731 --> 02:03:05,481
influencing this sort of hormonal 
metabolic regulation of fat 

2433
02:03:05,481 --> 02:03:05,580
accumulation.
Um,

2434
02:03:05,730 --> 02:03:10,730
what we ended up debating was whether or
not the people in the audience would 

2435
02:03:10,730 --> 02:03:15,051
rather be trained by Alan Aragon and the
physical trainer,

2436
02:03:15,211 --> 02:03:20,211
exercise physiologist or Gary Taubes,
the journalist because that's kind of 

2437
02:03:20,211 --> 02:03:21,930
ridiculous.
It is kind of ridiculous.

2438
02:03:21,931 --> 02:03:25,260
And it was a bizarre experience.
And you know,

2439
02:03:25,270 --> 02:03:25,590
it was,
uh,

2440
02:03:25,980 --> 02:03:27,810
it was,
it was an interesting trip.

2441
02:03:27,811 --> 02:03:28,800
And you learn your lesson

2442
02:03:29,250 --> 02:03:34,250
conversations with people before and 
that the problem with those 

2443
02:03:34,250 --> 02:03:34,250
conversations is it's,
you're,

2444
02:03:34,250 --> 02:03:37,350
you're taking a very simplistic approach
to a very complex scenario.

2445
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:42,840
You know,
if you did work out more and if you did 

2446
02:03:42,840 --> 02:03:45,381
do all these different things,
you're going to affect your body and 

2447
02:03:45,381 --> 02:03:47,871
your hormone levels.
If you start doing deep squats with 

2448
02:03:47,871 --> 02:03:48,300
heavy weights,
you start doing dead lifts and you start

2449
02:03:49,170 --> 02:03:51,360
putting a weight vest on that hiking up 
hills,

2450
02:03:51,361 --> 02:03:54,690
you're going to massively affect the way
your body produces hormones.

2451
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:59,920
Your body is going to ramp up,
it's going to deal with these new 

2452
02:03:59,920 --> 02:04:02,541
domains,
going to change the way you partitioned 

2453
02:04:02,541 --> 02:04:02,541
fuels.
Since things are gonna happen.

2454
02:04:02,541 --> 02:04:07,340
See,
it's not as simple as a lot of people 

2455
02:04:07,340 --> 02:04:07,740
like to point it out.
And then people see they seem to want to

2456
02:04:07,741 --> 02:04:10,290
do it as a math problem.
You know,

2457
02:04:10,320 --> 02:04:11,940
calories in,
calories out.

2458
02:04:11,980 --> 02:04:12,190
I

2459
02:04:12,190 --> 02:04:16,420
just said that I gave.
I was in Altadena on Sunday talking at a

2460
02:04:16,421 --> 02:04:19,750
skeptic society meeting.
We'll go to Altadena,

2461
02:04:20,320 --> 02:04:21,220
Michael Shermer,
Michael,

2462
02:04:22,310 --> 02:04:27,310
um,
and it was during the torrential rain 

2463
02:04:27,310 --> 02:04:31,261
storms,
so it was touch and go getting there 

2464
02:04:31,261 --> 02:04:31,261
because the roads were flooded.
But um,

2465
02:04:31,570 --> 02:04:33,940
just one guy sitting in the audience,
the front row,

2466
02:04:33,941 --> 02:04:36,980
um,
it was a calorie restricted or you know,

2467
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:42,000
one of these guys who eats like eight,
he lives on 1800 calories a day cause 

2468
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:44,340
he's thinks he's going to live longer 
and asked him if he wants to spar,

2469
02:04:47,990 --> 02:04:49,680
I'll get tired and about 20 seconds.

2470
02:04:52,490 --> 02:04:53,820
There's not a lot of.
Well,

2471
02:04:53,821 --> 02:04:56,300
the other thing with those guys,
there's not a lot of muscle tone,

2472
02:04:56,310 --> 02:04:58,040
right?
Because they don't have enough calories.

2473
02:04:58,050 --> 02:05:00,420
Dead Man walking so that anyway,
I'm going to live forever.

2474
02:05:00,430 --> 02:05:02,010
And Skeleton,
this is,

2475
02:05:04,020 --> 02:05:07,230
I did give a talk to the calorie 
restriction society.

2476
02:05:07,231 --> 02:05:12,231
I'm digressing again.
This is in Novato north or San 

2477
02:05:12,231 --> 02:05:16,220
Francisco.
And I got one of the guys in the email 

2478
02:05:16,220 --> 02:05:17,871
afterwards said,
and I was explaining that I thought all 

2479
02:05:17,871 --> 02:05:20,481
the benefits of calorie restriction come
from carbohydrate restriction because 

2480
02:05:20,481 --> 02:05:23,750
there's a lot of evidence suggesting 
that wouldn't make sense if it is 

2481
02:05:23,750 --> 02:05:25,320
beneficial.
It's because these guys minimum minimize

2482
02:05:25,321 --> 02:05:28,730
insulin and igf secretion.
And um,

2483
02:05:29,340 --> 02:05:32,460
you can minimize insulin igf,
but just not eating the carbs.

2484
02:05:32,461 --> 02:05:34,500
And then you get the fuel,
the rest of your body,

2485
02:05:34,501 --> 02:05:36,480
so you get the calories you need to get 
the protein,

2486
02:05:36,481 --> 02:05:41,481
you need to get the fat you need,
you don't eat the thing that stimulates 

2487
02:05:41,481 --> 02:05:41,481
insulin.

2488
02:05:41,481 --> 02:05:44,810
Igf.
And after the lecture I got an email 

2489
02:05:44,810 --> 02:05:45,750
from a guy in the audience who is part 
of this society who said,

2490
02:05:45,751 --> 02:05:46,980
you know,
I'm going to experiment.

2491
02:05:46,981 --> 02:05:49,510
I should get back with him to see what 
happened.

2492
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:50,790
It was like four years ago.
He said,

2493
02:05:50,791 --> 02:05:52,680
you look so much healthier than all of 
us.

2494
02:05:53,250 --> 02:05:58,250
And your argument was compelling.
I'm going to experiment to see if maybe 

2495
02:05:58,250 --> 02:06:01,620
there's something to what you say and 
I'm going to shift over from eating,

2496
02:06:01,650 --> 02:06:06,650
you know,
1800 calories of like 50 percent carbs 

2497
02:06:06,650 --> 02:06:10,790
to 1800 or maybe 2,500
or who knows how many of protein and 

2498
02:06:10,790 --> 02:06:10,790
fat.
Well,

2499
02:06:10,790 --> 02:06:11,090
I had Dr

2500
02:06:11,200 --> 02:06:16,200
Rhonda Patrick on the other day and she 
was discussing some pretty compelling 

2501
02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:20,671
evidence about the amount of time that 
you eat during the day and intermittent 

2502
02:06:20,671 --> 02:06:24,241
fasting and the importance of only 
eating within a 10 hour period from the 

2503
02:06:24,241 --> 02:06:28,831
morning.
You wake up to the time you stopped 

2504
02:06:28,831 --> 02:06:29,050
eating no more than 10 hours and then 
the rest of your day,

2505
02:06:29,051 --> 02:06:31,750
the remaining 14 hours,
no food.

2506
02:06:31,990 --> 02:06:33,730
Well,
and it's interesting because even,

2507
02:06:33,820 --> 02:06:38,820
um,
but she was talking about the massive 

2508
02:06:38,820 --> 02:06:40,741
benefits of that and in terms of gaining
and lean muscle mass just from doing 

2509
02:06:40,741 --> 02:06:43,120
that,
losing body fat just from doing that.

2510
02:06:43,550 --> 02:06:44,240
Yeah.
You know,

2511
02:06:44,241 --> 02:06:46,190
I'm,
I'm skeptical of everything.

2512
02:06:46,470 --> 02:06:49,430
I try to be as skeptical of my ideas as 
others.

2513
02:06:49,431 --> 02:06:52,400
Although people say I fail,
but I,

2514
02:06:53,270 --> 02:06:56,900
I haven't read those studies closely.
I'll get them to you after we get out of

2515
02:06:57,340 --> 02:07:00,200
send it to you and send you the,
the actual podcast itself.

2516
02:07:00,201 --> 02:07:01,580
I think you'll find it pretty 
fascinating.

2517
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:03,480
Yeah.
And you know,

2518
02:07:03,481 --> 02:07:05,110
the issue is,
I don't doubt it works.

2519
02:07:05,130 --> 02:07:07,850
I know people who had trouble losing,
you know,

2520
02:07:07,880 --> 02:07:12,880
significant weight on low carb diets and
then switched intermittent fasting and 

2521
02:07:12,880 --> 02:07:13,810
broke through.
Um,

2522
02:07:14,690 --> 02:07:15,950
uh,
you know,

2523
02:07:16,110 --> 02:07:19,070
there are some people I know in the 
field who I like,

2524
02:07:19,071 --> 02:07:24,071
who think that you might get excessive 
stress hormone stimulation from the fast

2525
02:07:24,141 --> 02:07:29,141
thing so that the long term effects may 
not be as beneficial as a kid agentic 

2526
02:07:29,151 --> 02:07:34,151
diet where you're not a zero evidence of
that cortisol.

2527
02:07:34,470 --> 02:07:36,070
Uh,
that would be,

2528
02:07:36,070 --> 02:07:36,880
yeah,
my understanding,

2529
02:07:36,881 --> 02:07:41,881
I haven't paid a lot of attention,
but based on people with a carbohydrate 

2530
02:07:41,881 --> 02:07:44,260
rich diet or people fat rich diet.
Let's Google.

2531
02:07:44,261 --> 02:07:49,261
I'm Steve Finney,
P H I n n e y and fasting.

2532
02:07:50,200 --> 02:07:53,080
I love this by the way.
It's like I don't need a memory.

2533
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:54,730
All those concussions,
you know,

2534
02:07:54,731 --> 02:07:56,860
it doesn't matter anymore how many 
concussions you have,

2535
02:07:56,861 --> 02:07:58,570
buddy.
I think between football.

2536
02:07:58,571 --> 02:08:03,571
And so you say between football.
I started thinking between football and 

2537
02:08:03,571 --> 02:08:05,800
boxing,
I'd say five or six.

2538
02:08:05,820 --> 02:08:06,390
That's it.
No,

2539
02:08:06,840 --> 02:08:09,250
you got off light.
I did get off flight.

2540
02:08:09,400 --> 02:08:11,920
Steven Dot Finney on making a low carb 
diet.

2541
02:08:11,921 --> 02:08:14,800
Sustainable.
We want to do Steve Finney,

2542
02:08:14,801 --> 02:08:18,100
a intermittent try.
Intermittent fast thing.

2543
02:08:19,240 --> 02:08:22,530
I'm uh,

2544
02:08:22,810 --> 02:08:26,570
let's see if we pull up low car 
preserves.

2545
02:08:26,600 --> 02:08:27,710
Well that's obvious.

2546
02:08:27,850 --> 02:08:29,880
Uh,

2547
02:08:31,460 --> 02:08:34,880
cutting edge fat burning podcasting.
Yeah.

2548
02:08:34,910 --> 02:08:35,750
Okay.
We're done.

2549
02:08:36,000 --> 02:08:37,010
Go.
Whoa,

2550
02:08:37,440 --> 02:08:38,710
hold on.
That's true.

2551
02:08:38,780 --> 02:08:42,650
Between the world's most cutting edge 
fat burning performance media plan,

2552
02:08:42,680 --> 02:08:43,800
the Keto Diet.
Okay.

2553
02:08:44,030 --> 02:08:45,740
Well anyway,
we'll get into that.

2554
02:08:45,770 --> 02:08:50,770
We,
you don't have much time left because 

2555
02:08:50,770 --> 02:08:50,770
you're going to have to bail soon to 
catch a flight.

2556
02:08:50,770 --> 02:08:54,170
Um,
so I don't wanna I don't wanna make you 

2557
02:08:54,170 --> 02:08:54,170
miss your flight,
but this is um,

2558
02:08:54,170 --> 02:08:58,090
you know,
another thing that people can look into 

2559
02:08:58,090 --> 02:08:58,240
once they're done with the intro thing,
even the intermittent fast.

2560
02:08:58,241 --> 02:09:01,490
And the interesting thing is there's two
ways to think of it.

2561
02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:02,440
One is,
well,

2562
02:09:02,441 --> 02:09:03,250
okay,
your reading life,

2563
02:09:03,251 --> 02:09:05,300
fewer calories and that's how it works,
right?

2564
02:09:05,301 --> 02:09:10,301
And the other is you're maximizing the 
amount of time during the day when 

2565
02:09:10,301 --> 02:09:13,631
insulin and igf are low and when you're 
saying eating fewer cowers because 

2566
02:09:13,761 --> 02:09:16,010
that's not necessarily what they're 
talking I'm talking about,

2567
02:09:16,011 --> 02:09:19,640
is taking time and allowing your body to
process all those nutrients.

2568
02:09:19,780 --> 02:09:24,780
Yeah.
And not using the resources that could 

2569
02:09:24,780 --> 02:09:25,190
be developing muscle and in building 
your body up.

2570
02:09:25,191 --> 02:09:30,191
So that would account for the increase 
in lean muscle mass simply by following 

2571
02:09:30,191 --> 02:09:32,270
this intermittent fasting program.
Although it's interesting,

2572
02:09:32,271 --> 02:09:35,930
I don't know if you had this experience 
when you went on the Ketogenic Diet.

2573
02:09:35,931 --> 02:09:37,910
So what I want to,
because you often read,

2574
02:09:37,911 --> 02:09:38,780
people say,
well you lose.

2575
02:09:38,781 --> 02:09:43,781
I was looking at a study today that was 
done in one week study done like 1967 

2576
02:09:43,781 --> 02:09:48,731
where they lost more protein on the 
ketogenetic diet that a calorie 

2577
02:09:48,981 --> 02:09:51,200
restricted diet.
They were all calorie restricted.

2578
02:09:51,980 --> 02:09:53,570
But when I went on this diet,
it was interesting.

2579
02:09:53,571 --> 02:09:58,571
My waist size went down and my jacket 
size went up and I probably my upper 

2580
02:10:00,411 --> 02:10:05,411
body,
my lower body doesn't work because of 

2581
02:10:05,411 --> 02:10:08,410
the cartilage in the knees.
And the other wonderful things football 

2582
02:10:08,410 --> 02:10:08,630
left me with.
But um,

2583
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:10,130
you know,
I just,

2584
02:10:10,131 --> 02:10:12,110
I'm stronger now than I was when I was 
in college.

2585
02:10:12,111 --> 02:10:14,510
I was working out three hours a day.
I'm going to tell how old are you now?

2586
02:10:14,540 --> 02:10:15,850
Sixty.
Look.

2587
02:10:15,880 --> 02:10:17,090
Great,
thank you.

2588
02:10:17,520 --> 02:10:18,920
Oh,
you look good.

2589
02:10:18,980 --> 02:10:21,980
Too Cute.
But,

2590
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:22,730
uh,
anyway,

2591
02:10:22,731 --> 02:10:27,731
so what's the point?
The point is by changing the time at 

2592
02:10:28,041 --> 02:10:33,041
which you reading,
and I believe you could probably eat 

2593
02:10:33,041 --> 02:10:33,041
this many calories,
maybe need more calories by doing it.

2594
02:10:33,041 --> 02:10:33,980
It's not calorie thing,
it's

2595
02:10:33,980 --> 02:10:38,980
a how does your body respond to having 
more time is low insulin levels 

2596
02:10:39,380 --> 02:10:44,380
basically and low more time at low igf 
levels and I could imagine even in the 

2597
02:10:45,051 --> 02:10:49,100
low carb diets when people are 
prescribing them 50 years ago,

2598
02:10:49,101 --> 02:10:54,101
60 years ago,
they used to prescribe a walk before 

2599
02:10:54,101 --> 02:10:56,771
breakfast,
which is interesting because that's the 

2600
02:10:56,771 --> 02:10:56,771
time when your insulin levels are 
lowest.

2601
02:10:56,771 --> 02:11:00,080
That's a time when you really mobilizing
the fat from your fat tissue.

2602
02:11:00,370 --> 02:11:01,970
Um,
so in that sense,

2603
02:11:01,971 --> 02:11:06,971
skipping breakfast,
prolonging the amount of time before 

2604
02:11:06,971 --> 02:11:09,941
your first meal in the day would 
actually maximize his time when you're 

2605
02:11:09,941 --> 02:11:13,841
mobilizing fat.
I don't have people prefer fasting 

2606
02:11:13,841 --> 02:11:13,841
cardio.
They,

2607
02:11:13,841 --> 02:11:17,980
they,
they enjoy that wake up in the morning 

2608
02:11:17,980 --> 02:11:18,530
and having hard cardio or some sort of a
hard workout first thing in the morning.

2609
02:11:18,620 --> 02:11:23,620
Well,
and it's interesting because that's the 

2610
02:11:23,620 --> 02:11:25,120
point of the day when they're most 
likely to be burning fat rather than 

2611
02:11:25,120 --> 02:11:25,120
glucose.

2612
02:11:25,120 --> 02:11:27,050
If they're not drinking a juice or soda 
beforehand,

2613
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:30,920
I could never do and I always wanted to 
be able to do cardio first.

2614
02:11:30,921 --> 02:11:33,410
We certainly could.
You just don't want to know.

2615
02:11:33,411 --> 02:11:35,780
I ended up.
I'm just elevated the whole day.

2616
02:11:35,781 --> 02:11:39,980
It's like I'm dragging my ass.
Although I cannot wake up afterwards.

2617
02:11:39,981 --> 02:11:43,130
It's just my reality doesn't do it,
but it's even if I got you.

2618
02:11:43,170 --> 02:11:45,320
I got two kids.
I got a two boys,

2619
02:11:45,321 --> 02:11:49,640
11 and eight and I feed him breakfast in
the morning and I.

2620
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:52,730
I Cook Him Dinner Maybe three times a 
week.

2621
02:11:52,731 --> 02:11:57,731
My wife's a vegetarian so I got to cook 
the meat if I want them to eat animals 

2622
02:11:58,940 --> 02:12:01,460
they have their body clocks are entirely
different.

2623
02:12:01,461 --> 02:12:06,020
They have very different body types.
My youngest is not hungry in the morning

2624
02:12:06,890 --> 02:12:09,620
and my oldest is and my youngest at 
night,

2625
02:12:09,680 --> 02:12:13,010
like if you put pasta in front of him,
he would just keep eating it and needing

2626
02:12:13,011 --> 02:12:14,630
it,
needing it until you finally just say no

2627
02:12:14,631 --> 02:12:15,740
more,
you're going to blow up.

2628
02:12:17,450 --> 02:12:21,110
My eldest in the evening doesn't care.
It's not interested in,

2629
02:12:21,290 --> 02:12:22,520
you know,
he'll eat a little bit.

2630
02:12:22,670 --> 02:12:26,510
He could skip dinner even like entirely 
different body types,

2631
02:12:26,750 --> 02:12:31,750
but timing of their hunger,
which has got to be related to insulin 

2632
02:12:31,750 --> 02:12:32,330
secretion,
other hormones,

2633
02:12:32,540 --> 02:12:34,100
you know,
bio rhythms,

2634
02:12:34,610 --> 02:12:38,660
so it's a.
everyone's different than that.

2635
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:42,950
Biodiversity is a very important 
consideration when you talking about any

2636
02:12:42,951 --> 02:12:44,660
kind of diet,
whether it's a Vegan diet,

2637
02:12:44,661 --> 02:12:46,640
a vegetarian diet,
ketogenic diet,

2638
02:12:46,940 --> 02:12:49,490
everybody's body responds differently to
different things,

2639
02:12:49,550 --> 02:12:54,550
but what I'm saying about getting back 
to the case against sugar is we've got 

2640
02:12:54,550 --> 02:12:57,920
obese and diabetic because of the sugar 
and processed grains.

2641
02:12:58,820 --> 02:13:03,820
The people who became obese and diabetic
did so because of the sugar and the 

2642
02:13:04,581 --> 02:13:09,581
process grades and that sense,
their bodies all responded the same 

2643
02:13:09,581 --> 02:13:13,370
regardless of what their geno type was.
Right?

2644
02:13:13,670 --> 02:13:17,180
And now when you want to get them back 
from the edge,

2645
02:13:17,660 --> 02:13:20,360
that's where individual variation plays 
a role.

2646
02:13:20,361 --> 02:13:23,210
I mean that guy mcdougall pushes to 
starch diet.

2647
02:13:23,211 --> 02:13:28,211
He's got people on his website who swear
that they lost a hundred pounds eating 

2648
02:13:28,211 --> 02:13:31,661
only potatoes.
Don't you think though that a lot of 

2649
02:13:31,661 --> 02:13:32,160
people,
when you start concentrating

2650
02:13:32,280 --> 02:13:37,280
on losing weight and concentrating on 
being healthy and concentrating on your 

2651
02:13:37,280 --> 02:13:40,881
di,
you make a concerted effort sort of 

2652
02:13:40,881 --> 02:13:40,881
across the board.
So if you just go,

2653
02:13:40,881 --> 02:13:41,430
I'm only gonna eat sweet potatoes and 
you know,

2654
02:13:41,440 --> 02:13:46,440
and like it just the very act of 
considering your diet and being 

2655
02:13:47,461 --> 02:13:49,410
conscientious has an effect.

2656
02:13:49,590 --> 02:13:51,300
Well,
it has an effect in many ways.

2657
02:13:51,301 --> 02:13:56,301
One of them is you do consistent things 
that there are consistent things that 

2658
02:13:56,301 --> 02:13:58,080
you don't do.
So like make the logo,

2659
02:13:58,081 --> 02:14:03,081
puts people on a starch diet and Atkins 
puts them on a ketogenic diet and ornish

2660
02:14:03,271 --> 02:14:08,271
puts them on a 10 percent fat.
Mostly vegetarian diet and nestled thien

2661
02:14:08,760 --> 02:14:09,360
is,
you know,

2662
02:14:09,361 --> 02:14:12,030
a low carb diet and none of them,
all of them say,

2663
02:14:12,031 --> 02:14:14,340
don't eat sugar,
don't drink soda.

2664
02:14:14,341 --> 02:14:15,770
I don't drink fruit.
Juices,

2665
02:14:15,780 --> 02:14:18,540
don't eat white bread.
And they don't do it for the same reason

2666
02:14:18,541 --> 02:14:21,060
because it's good to stimulate insulin,
you know,

2667
02:14:21,061 --> 02:14:22,680
so.
And then when they benefit,

2668
02:14:23,790 --> 02:14:28,790
you don't know if they benefited because
they didn't eat meat or they didn't eat 

2669
02:14:28,830 --> 02:14:33,030
gluten or they didn't eat sugar and 
white bread and you know,

2670
02:14:33,390 --> 02:14:38,390
so the question then will become an even
if the ones who benefited like under 

2671
02:14:38,390 --> 02:14:42,921
McDougall diet,
the thing that makes me suspicious is 

2672
02:14:42,921 --> 02:14:46,491
the people we say,
I tried Atkins and it didn't work for 

2673
02:14:46,491 --> 02:14:47,250
me.
And is that that they really try it.

2674
02:14:47,690 --> 02:14:52,690
They try it,
lost 60 pounds and then went back to 

2675
02:14:52,690 --> 02:14:54,120
eating carbs and gained it back and said
the Diet failed.

2676
02:14:54,660 --> 02:14:58,350
Did they just find it too hard to live 
without their pastries?

2677
02:14:58,380 --> 02:15:03,380
But once they make duke came along and 
put them on the potato diet or did he 

2678
02:15:03,380 --> 02:15:08,211
just tell him to say that because he 
wants to point out that this works for 

2679
02:15:08,211 --> 02:15:09,570
people that low carb does it and you 
just never know.

2680
02:15:10,020 --> 02:15:13,200
Crazy.
Crazy world.

2681
02:15:13,770 --> 02:15:18,770
Yeah.
It's very hard to tell when you're 

2682
02:15:18,770 --> 02:15:18,770
dealing with anecdotal evidence.
Right?

2683
02:15:18,770 --> 02:15:21,831
It's very,
very hard to tell when dealing with 

2684
02:15:21,831 --> 02:15:23,721
personal experiences about what someone 
says they did versus what they actually 

2685
02:15:23,721 --> 02:15:23,721
did.

2686
02:15:23,721 --> 02:15:24,340
Yeah.
The one that's nobody knows.

2687
02:15:24,341 --> 02:15:26,860
And one of the great flow,
I mean there's tons of.

2688
02:15:26,870 --> 02:15:31,870
We could talk about the flaws in 
nutrition research for another three 

2689
02:15:31,870 --> 02:15:32,770
hours.
That'll be our next podcast.

2690
02:15:32,790 --> 02:15:37,790
No,
it's interesting because I'm doing this 

2691
02:15:37,790 --> 02:15:37,790
talk with you.
I've never done it like two,

2692
02:15:37,790 --> 02:15:41,251
three hour podcasts before and you're 
like still laser focused and I could 

2693
02:15:41,251 --> 02:15:45,271
imagine,
I think I'm going to get in the ring 

2694
02:15:45,271 --> 02:15:45,271
with you.
I could see it happening.

2695
02:15:45,271 --> 02:15:46,450
That exact thing that we discussed 
earlier about that,

2696
02:15:46,451 --> 02:15:51,451
you know,
you need like five minutes of energy to 

2697
02:15:51,451 --> 02:15:52,840
overwhelm your opponent and I could see 
it happening here and I'm thinking,

2698
02:15:52,841 --> 02:15:57,841
okay,
if I didn't have a cold and I can 

2699
02:15:57,841 --> 02:15:57,841
breathe through my nose,
I could take Joe,

2700
02:15:57,841 --> 02:16:00,781
we could go for seven hours.
I can wear them out and if it gets bad 

2701
02:16:00,781 --> 02:16:01,780
we'll take out the drugs and the Tequila
and we'll see.

2702
02:16:01,781 --> 02:16:04,250
You know how there he's probably got,
you know,

2703
02:16:04,251 --> 02:16:05,920
I,
I gotta get back in shape there.

2704
02:16:06,010 --> 02:16:07,120
But anyway,
it's interesting.

2705
02:16:07,150 --> 02:16:10,450
So packet drugs,
it's been a long time.

2706
02:16:11,170 --> 02:16:13,670
Well I got a certain,
you know,

2707
02:16:13,671 --> 02:16:17,650
establishment veneer that I got to 
present to the world.

2708
02:16:17,750 --> 02:16:20,710
Understand responsible,
I got to get people who wear jackets and

2709
02:16:20,711 --> 02:16:24,610
ties and button down shirts from Brooks 
brothers to take me seriously.

2710
02:16:24,640 --> 02:16:26,470
Believe me,
as weird as it sounds,

2711
02:16:26,471 --> 02:16:28,120
a lot of those fuckers are listening 
right now.

2712
02:16:28,220 --> 02:16:30,160
That's good.
And done it for awhile.

2713
02:16:30,250 --> 02:16:32,620
This is a really important subject and 
this is,

2714
02:16:32,621 --> 02:16:37,621
wrap this up here because I just want to
thank you very much for writing that 

2715
02:16:37,621 --> 02:16:40,330
book and taking the time to put it in 
that research,

2716
02:16:40,331 --> 02:16:45,331
uh,
against probably a lot of people's 

2717
02:16:45,331 --> 02:16:45,400
advice and my wife.
Well her,

2718
02:16:46,150 --> 02:16:48,890
it worked out in my,
in laws overall.

2719
02:16:49,120 --> 02:16:54,120
I mean it really is.
You've made a substantial impact and 

2720
02:16:54,120 --> 02:16:56,671
like I said,
at least a half a dozen people that I 

2721
02:16:56,671 --> 02:16:58,891
deeply respected recommended your work 
and I'm really glad I got a chance to 

2722
02:16:58,891 --> 02:17:02,101
sit down and talk about this and I think
a lot of people are going to benefit 

2723
02:17:02,101 --> 02:17:05,341
from this podcast and this is one thing 
that's just sort of piling on top of a 

2724
02:17:05,520 --> 02:17:10,520
massive amount of data that's now 
available to people that lets them make 

2725
02:17:10,520 --> 02:17:10,520
better,
better food choice.

2726
02:17:10,630 --> 02:17:15,630
Well,
that's the one thing I was going to say 

2727
02:17:15,630 --> 02:17:17,371
is what's really been the trump trump 
card?

2728
02:17:20,430 --> 02:17:22,890
He's out.
What's really pushed,

2729
02:17:22,891 --> 02:17:23,330
uh,
you know,

2730
02:17:23,331 --> 02:17:26,140
what's allows us to win.
Okay.

2731
02:17:26,141 --> 02:17:30,910
Which we couldn't win 50 years ago is he
internet and that,

2732
02:17:30,911 --> 02:17:32,680
and people can try these dive.
Remember I said,

2733
02:17:32,681 --> 02:17:34,010
yeah,
we're dealt for aces.

2734
02:17:34,030 --> 02:17:36,340
The fact as you go on these diets,
it helps people.

2735
02:17:36,400 --> 02:17:38,020
It helps them a lot,
not everyone.

2736
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:40,570
And we got distracted in some people.
I don't know,

2737
02:17:40,571 --> 02:17:43,750
maybe some people just have bad 
reactions to cutting out all the carbs,

2738
02:17:44,170 --> 02:17:46,600
but for most people,
some significant proportion,

2739
02:17:46,601 --> 02:17:49,390
they give up the carbs,
they're healthier and then they can talk

2740
02:17:49,391 --> 02:17:51,760
about on the Internet and they could 
share with people and they don't have to

2741
02:17:51,761 --> 02:17:54,730
live in the same town or go to the same 
school.

2742
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:58,750
So the word gets out and then other 
people want to be helped.

2743
02:17:58,750 --> 02:17:59,230
And,
you know,

2744
02:17:59,231 --> 02:18:04,231
even with physicians,
it's like I got these doctors saying 

2745
02:18:04,231 --> 02:18:07,970
you,
you made medicine fund for me again 

2746
02:18:07,970 --> 02:18:09,130
because I can help people and that to 
get spread around the Internet and they,

2747
02:18:09,250 --> 02:18:14,250
you know,
you create clusters and facebook groups 

2748
02:18:14,250 --> 02:18:15,310
and it just,
you create momentum and you break out of

2749
02:18:15,311 --> 02:18:17,150
the gatekeepers.
It's no longer,

2750
02:18:17,730 --> 02:18:21,940
it's no longer just did I or did I not 
get into the medical journal?

2751
02:18:21,941 --> 02:18:23,950
Was I influence enough to write this 
review.

2752
02:18:23,951 --> 02:18:25,390
It's like,
wait a minute,

2753
02:18:25,391 --> 02:18:30,391
you said this,
but look at what happened to my 

2754
02:18:30,391 --> 02:18:30,880
neighbor.
I want that to happen to me.

2755
02:18:31,480 --> 02:18:36,480
And so you get this kind of revolution.
It's slow and it's takes time.

2756
02:18:36,941 --> 02:18:37,660
And it,
you know,

2757
02:18:37,661 --> 02:18:41,080
there's a lot of resistance and the 
vegetarian community,

2758
02:18:41,081 --> 02:18:46,081
they,
they resist it because the implication 

2759
02:18:46,081 --> 02:18:46,320
is that a lot of people will be 
healthier for the Ada.

2760
02:18:46,330 --> 02:18:48,290
Animals said to Michael Pollan's,
you know,

2761
02:18:48,291 --> 02:18:51,400
eat food not too much.
Mostly plants and for the,

2762
02:18:51,970 --> 02:18:56,970
uh,
obese diabetic individuals in the 

2763
02:18:56,970 --> 02:18:58,000
country which represent virtually 50 
percent of Americans,

2764
02:18:58,540 --> 02:18:59,650
maybe.
Mostly animals.

2765
02:19:00,050 --> 02:19:01,830
Well,
I'm hoping though that with the,

2766
02:19:01,831 --> 02:19:02,180
the.
I mean,

2767
02:19:02,181 --> 02:19:04,880
there's been some really significant 
breakthroughs over the last few years.

2768
02:19:04,881 --> 02:19:08,690
We had factory produced meat that does 
not involve any animals dying,

2769
02:19:09,140 --> 02:19:14,140
their initial meet from a dead animal 
and reproduce it in factories and I 

2770
02:19:14,271 --> 02:19:19,271
think we're probably just a couple of 
years away from mass production or 

2771
02:19:19,271 --> 02:19:19,271
something like that.
You know,

2772
02:19:19,271 --> 02:19:20,140
it's interesting.
One of the things that were in Missouri,

2773
02:19:20,160 --> 02:19:21,710
they're going to make low fat meat,
right?

2774
02:19:21,730 --> 02:19:23,780
Because I don't know.
I mean maybe with,

2775
02:19:23,810 --> 02:19:28,810
with what's going on right now and the 
understanding that people have versus 

2776
02:19:28,810 --> 02:19:28,810
what they

2777
02:19:28,810 --> 02:19:30,320
had only five or six years ago.
I mean,

2778
02:19:30,370 --> 02:19:35,370
I don't,
I think there's probably going to be a 

2779
02:19:35,370 --> 02:19:35,370
market for high fat meat.
I hope so.

2780
02:19:35,370 --> 02:19:38,801
Well,
I'm gonna wait for you to try it and 

2781
02:19:38,801 --> 02:19:40,880
telling that shows the benefit of being 
a hunter.

2782
02:19:40,970 --> 02:19:44,390
So a kill my own meat is healthy as it 
gets.

2783
02:19:44,460 --> 02:19:45,290
Yeah.
But I,

2784
02:19:45,770 --> 02:19:47,020
I sympathize.
I,

2785
02:19:47,030 --> 02:19:49,520
I completely understand where the 
vegetarians and the vegans can.

2786
02:19:49,521 --> 02:19:50,340
I get it.
I,

2787
02:19:50,400 --> 02:19:53,410
I,
and I admire them as.

2788
02:19:53,420 --> 02:19:57,050
I really feel like anybody could eat,
like naturally sourced eggs.

2789
02:19:57,260 --> 02:20:00,800
Like I have chickens and they don't,
they don't get harmed by me eating their

2790
02:20:00,801 --> 02:20:05,801
eggs at all.
They live a natural life and 

2791
02:20:05,801 --> 02:20:08,231
everything's fine.
There was no cruelty involved 

2792
02:20:08,231 --> 02:20:08,231
whatsoever.
And those eggs are extremely healthy and

2793
02:20:08,231 --> 02:20:09,910
beneficial and that's some of the best,
uh,

2794
02:20:10,100 --> 02:20:13,490
emails I ever got were from Vegetarians 
who said,

2795
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:14,690
you know,
I read your stuff.

2796
02:20:14,690 --> 02:20:17,030
I didn't want to like it.
I thought I'm intellectually open.

2797
02:20:17,031 --> 02:20:20,150
I'll read a couple of chapters,
decide it's full of shit,

2798
02:20:20,151 --> 02:20:22,730
and then I'll be able to close it.
And much to my dismay,

2799
02:20:22,731 --> 02:20:26,000
I found your argument compelling and 
some of them start eating,

2800
02:20:26,180 --> 02:20:29,000
start eating meat again.
Some just add eggs back to their diet,

2801
02:20:29,160 --> 02:20:34,160
thanks to the shoulder and the crap and 
find that they're healthier and happier 

2802
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:35,430
and they feel better.
And that,

2803
02:20:35,450 --> 02:20:38,510
that to me,
when you don't convince,

2804
02:20:38,511 --> 02:20:40,190
when you see somebody say,
you know,

2805
02:20:40,191 --> 02:20:40,730
hey,
I,

2806
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:43,160
I get it.
I do see your point.

2807
02:20:43,161 --> 02:20:44,570
And I was,
I can change.

2808
02:20:44,640 --> 02:20:49,640
I feel like for people,
eggs are the best compromise because 

2809
02:20:49,640 --> 02:20:50,180
you,
you can easily digest them.

2810
02:20:50,290 --> 02:20:53,180
It's very few issues whatsoever with 
that.

2811
02:20:53,181 --> 02:20:54,560
And again,
if you have a yard,

2812
02:20:54,740 --> 02:20:59,740
you could have your own chickens.
Well that's not only that you can make 

2813
02:20:59,740 --> 02:20:59,740
the,
it's they're like quick,

2814
02:20:59,740 --> 02:21:04,090
I mean,
you could scramble for eggs in the 

2815
02:21:04,090 --> 02:21:04,090
morning and almost as much time as it 
takes to poor salary.

2816
02:21:04,090 --> 02:21:05,370
I went to a ball cap,
so.

2817
02:21:05,840 --> 02:21:06,900
Absolutely.
Yeah.

2818
02:21:07,010 --> 02:21:09,460
So it sounds like I don't have time to 
eat right.

2819
02:21:09,770 --> 02:21:14,770
Um,
they don't take a lot of work to be 

2820
02:21:14,770 --> 02:21:14,770
good.
Some people,

2821
02:21:14,770 --> 02:21:14,770
I mean,
my oldest son,

2822
02:21:14,770 --> 02:21:18,461
I can't get them to eat an egg unless 
it's gotten motsa mixed in and maple 

2823
02:21:18,461 --> 02:21:20,060
syrup port.
I don't know what it is.

2824
02:21:20,061 --> 02:21:21,320
Again,
it's one of these things,

2825
02:21:21,321 --> 02:21:23,210
it's like it's poison to them.
But listen,

2826
02:21:23,211 --> 02:21:24,990
Gary,
thanks so much for being here.

2827
02:21:25,010 --> 02:21:26,030
Really,
really appreciate it.

2828
02:21:26,031 --> 02:21:29,660
And I urge anyone listening to this to 
check out Gary's book,

2829
02:21:29,900 --> 02:21:33,020
the case against sugar and anything 
else.

2830
02:21:33,430 --> 02:21:33,980
No,
that's it.

2831
02:21:33,981 --> 02:21:34,880
Thank you joe.
Thank you.

2832
02:21:34,881 --> 02:21:35,960
Great.
Really appreciate it.

2833
02:21:36,020 --> 02:21:37,250
It's cool.
All right folks,

2834
02:21:37,251 --> 02:21:40,380
we'll be back tomorrow with Shane Smith 
from vice hollow.
